"i'd tap that ass."
- Anathema
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| #1 -=Phanta=- (proxy-ext1.omen.net.au)[21950] | | | FIRST COMMENT EVER!!!!!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!! | | #2 -=Phanta=- (proxy-ext1.omen.net.au)[21952] | | First. Nice battle report. I found it VERY detailed which is good.
Now my questions.... =)
Id like to question you about your Terran Vs Zerg Strats.
I quote you saying
" the standard Zerg vs. Terran lurker strats don't work too
terribly well."
"nor do I use any
static ramp defenses."
Since your rated 1300 ill trust you on this one =). I am an all Terran myself and i usually hear
stuff like Terran > Zerg. Well thats just great, but i dont exactly know how to get past lurkers in the early game. I nearly always (90%) encounter Lurkers when i vs Zerg.
My question: How do i easily defeat the Lurker Threat without using ramp defenses?
This is my biuld order. Kinda similar to yours.
8 Depot
10 Rax
13 Rax
15 Depot
16 Refinery
Academy 20
Depot
THe only thing is, i have ALOT of trouble stopping lurkers. If i have heaps of men, the just kill them in 2 hits. Any comment on this?
-=Phanta=-
| | #3 GhOsT~LiZarD (2Cust49.tnt3.tco2.da.uu.net)[21955] | | | Why do u get the 2nd rax so late? I usually go 8 depot, 10,11 rax, 14 refinery, then I either go acad tech if I see him going hydra/ling or fact tech if he's going lurker, I also like to sneak an SCV and make a bunker by is gas, it really fucks zerg up sometimes. | | #4 SnowSquall (a1-1a052.neo.rr.com)[21958] | | Nice report! You have an smooth writing style that's easy to follow.
I usually do research burrow for the reasons you mentioned.. in combination with the fact that a burrowed ling here and there gives you excellant recon of the whole map. Zerg isn't my race though. | | #5 [MrFurious] (bha3-s23.mtl.colba.net)[21960] | | I can understand why he does that. As terran, when building you must take into account the fact that your are taking away scv mining time. I believe its the reason why people get the first rax at 10 even if they can sometimes get it on 9.
Those 11 and 12 scvs are placed on mining and bolster up the economy. I know that starcraft theory says you should be spending every penny, but if you do so with terran early, your economy stays linear. Essentially, If you get those two rax back to back, when your 12th scv rolls out, your rate of mineral intake hasn't changed since the time your 9th joined the line.
I have found that when doing Heavy metal I was making the mistake of getting the refinery as fast as possible (i.e. during construction of the first rax). This made me weak in minerals because 1 scv was taken away from mins and 2 more were transferred ,when the refinery was finished, earlier than they should have been.
This is just Theorycraft of course and Ghost could own me anyday. Just curious as to the thoughts of other terran players on this.
Cheers,
MrFurious | | #6 Drefsab (rc40.Rmax1.globalsite.net)[21966] | | Excellent report... so many nice little tidbits of strategy and tactics throughout this report. Kind of reminds of a Mark4 report. I very much enjoyed it and it was a nice switch from all the "fiction" reports that litter the front page right now.
Dref | | #7 Evire!! (ip11.philadelphia11.pa.pub-ip.psi.net)[21968] | | I use a really risky build order vs zerg:
8 Depot
10 rax
12 Refinery
14 Academy
..rax
..depot
This is ment for an extremely early 4 marine 1 medic rush vs those stupid lurk rushers who don't get any defense at all. If they attack early on, you can just use your scv's, and don't forget, you can always get firebats if he keeps sending lings. Firebat + Medics > Hordes of Lings
Anyway nice report.
...and I don't know, N'sync, Bjork, and Matchbox 20 are all pretty damn bad.... | | #8 [wo]ohoo (pool0435.cvx2-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)[21969] | | | has anyone tried to 3rax? it seems to be pretty good against zerg...i usually do 8depot,10rax,12rax,depot,rax,refinery,acad,ebay. i usually get stim then range, and upgrade armor 1 as soon as possible if i see lurkers (marines survive 3 attacks instead of 2) i dunno with wut scv i make those things, but im constantly making them until i get comsat, and that's right after i get acad. usually i dont make men until i get the 2 rax's done and 3rd one building, it just depends on the situation. anyway, with 3rax u usually get a lot more men. after an initial attack i usually tech to sci vessels (esp if they go lurkers for detection). i dont know, just try it =) | | #9 Krebster (spider-tp011.proxy.aol.com)[21973] | | | -=Phanta=-: Just go triple rax vs zerg and you will have plenty to either Stop the lurkers with a little stim and retreating, sheerly overpower the lurkers, or hurt the opponent's economy or maybe even kill him/her. Later game unless they go hard hydra lurker just get several SV's and a few tanks for the support of your infantry. | | #10 patheto (rigel.tct.net)[21978] | | | IMHO, using terran infantry against lurers is much like using them against reavers. Keep'em spread out, make use of the enemy's long cool-down. Of course you need comsat, and you'll lose some guys, but lurkers are awfully expensive(trust me, I play zerg). Where it gets really tricky is hydraling with lurker support. In that case you need tanks, or you are DEAD. Aim tanks at lurkers, the splash will hurt his hydras a little, too. | #11  (ncache1.ford.com)[21980] | | Burrowing lings, yada, yada, yada... Heard it all before.
Just kidding, good report, nice strats. | | #12 Sp|nE (dialup0113-pri.voicenet.com)[21983] | | Alright, looking at this game from the zerg's perspective, i honestly dont know what he was thinking. Going all lings is pretty much going to lose you some ladder points. Hydraling simply CANT deal with terrans early tech units ever since bw and the medic. But him burrowing lings near you and popping them up while you attacked was a pretty nice idea, ill have to try it sometime. It takes advantage of terrans POS mobility nicely =] I guess the he just did that strat to throw you off guard, because i havnt seen it in a long time either. He should have switched to lurkers earlier, instead of muta. He could have gotten olie carrying and shuttled a slow ovie into your base with a coupla lurks, which probably woulda killed you. Thats jsut me though =]
I have no bo zerg v terr, although i always have a roughly sketched strat, which is usually the same. Early expand on 10/9, pool, ovie. Pump drones till pool is 400 hp done, then save larva for lings. Then just pretty much pump some drones and some lings while teching fast to lurkers, while constantly keeping an eye on him to see if hes attacking. I usuually get 3+ sunkens, and their medmarine rush fails 95% of the time. Then i just use the initial 3 lurks to contain or get rid of his contain at my base, and get more, while getting a spire, nest, and expanding again. Then just harass with mutas and take map, eventually get guards. I've havnt lost zerg v terr in a long time ...
On your strategy, it was pretty much fine except you probably needed bats instead of those medics early on during his first attack. Still well done though =]
Oh, nice report. Hehe. 7.5, mb 8 | #13  (pool0277.cvx12-bra[21986] | | I can't believe you have never seen this before, or at least not recently. Burrow is a waste of 100 gas early though. Park your 24-36 lings in the middle out of his sight with your OL over his cliff (substitute 1 scout ling if not playing temple) When he move out you move in and thats game over.
Of course dont listen to me Ive never even been 1300 on ladder | | #14 Tariq (yul34.dialin.netaxis.ca)[21987] | | Man the guy must be an old school player I havent seen or heard of ppl using that burrow lings strat in a while.
As for the build that ppl are talking about, im not creative so i use the one the grrrr... uses
8-Depot
10-11, rax
12-13, rax
gas
~30-34 academy
I've used it for a while and it works well as longs as you can micro vs really fast lurks.
Btw nice report didnt even need screen shots
Respect for that guy
1 | | #15 Glak (dhcp-219-189.res.UMassD.Edu)[21989] | | | Great report | | #16 Silver`Thunder (huru59.wuh.wustl.edu)[21993] | | Nice report... excellent. It was very easy to follow and you explained everything well. I fully agree with your terran strategy vs. zerg (no bunkers at choke, etc). I have not seen that strategy used in as long as I can remember so I'll be ready to use or defend against it.
Whoop does have a good point in his comment above which is true for zergling counter offense. However, zerglings on defense (popping up when the marines are right above 'em) makes burrow usefull at times. | | #17 WaSSupNoW (spider-tn073.proxy.aol.com)[21997] | | That was an interesting report. Normally I don't see people doing lings at all vs. terran. My normal build vs. terran is 8 ovie, 12 hatch at expand then pump drones and start pool. When I have the money, I start another hatch at choke. Next comes 2 extractor at both spots, hydra den, and then pump hydras out of 3 hatches. With the money from 2 bases, I can usually double upgrade out of 2 evo chambers.
With some good micro, I can usually beat out even medarine combos without lurker. Get the range upgrade ASAP for hydra; focus fire. Shift-right click on each marine and then dance your hydras like heck. Whenever one gets to red, pull him to the back of your pack. Most of the time, 3 or 4 marines will still chasem, while you wastem. Throwin in a few queen/ensnare if you have surplus gas helps a lot of the time and make an easy transition to broodling if he starts going hard tanks. Note: I am not saying that queens should be your only defense against tanks, they just make good support for your hydras. Normally I find myself up in minerals with 2 base 3 hatch hydras and can expand again to tech to air or crackling/defiler. However, most terran vs. zerg games on land maps progress past the hydra/marine/tank stage. | | #18 WaSSupNoW (spider-tn073.proxy.aol.com)[21999] | | | correction: most terran vs. zerg on land NEVER progress past the hydra/marine/tank | | #19 Sp|nE (dialup0517-pri.voicenet.com)[22003] | | I dont care how much you micro your silly hydras, medmarine with tanks own them cost for cost. Do you realize that with all the microing you were doing, 4 lurkers in that mix of hydra could rape those rines <u>a lot</u> easier? 3 hatch hydras is good vs toss though. But i see no logic in doing it vs terran. You <b>NEED</b> lurker support. And queens are a waste of gas, broodling is too much energy, and alltogether impractical.
Lurker muta is the way to go imo... | | #20 Chargon (56K-085.MaxTNT2.pdq.net)[22008] | | | Bah, 3 mid game queens can win a game 4 zerg. Ensnare owns m/m, and nothing stops a turbo newbie like a couple of broodlings. Queens of course come after lurks and before the terran breaks containment. It delays the guards a little, but can really be usefull. | | #21 Microman (dub.iinet.net.au)[22011] | | Hey, many people just use speedlings instead of burrowing.
Just a thought.
| | #22 SisterRay(RLA) (darkshadows.resnet.tamu.edu)[22028] | | WOW, thanks for all the great comments :) You guys really know how to make someone feel special.
To -=Phanta=-:
Sorry, I didn't mean to breeze past the part of the game you have trouble with.
Two things are important for fighting against lurkers in the early game: Map position and micro.
With M&M against lurkers, you can really slow down their progress and inflict some casualties by shooting the lurkers until the last possible second and then running out of range. Practice, and you'll learn the timing of when to flee. As soon as they unburrow, repeat. That's how I fight lurkers without the aid of a ramp.
The impotant thing is to start harassing the lurkers as early in their path from the enemy base to yours as possible. With practice, you'll be able to slow down and even kill an early 5 lurkers with just your infantry, anywhere on the map, and without losing much. Lurker rushes generally don't even get to my ramp. SAVE YOUR COMSAT! Try to use it only in dire situations. And start getting tanks. If your opponent supports his lurkers with lings or hydras, just kill what you can of the support (don't bother targeting the lurkers or anything else for that matter) and run back before the lurkers get off their attack. You really do need tanks in this situation, if at all possible, but you can still hold it off with just infantry. I'll try and write a Terran vs. Lurker rush battle report sometime with better details on how I stop it.
On earlier second rax (10-rax 11-rax and such), I like to pump scv's constantly in the early-mid game, and you can't do that with a second rax so soon. Having a couple of extra marines early on probably won't make as much of a difference in the long run as a stronger economy. 10-rax 11-rax will get you your first 8 marines faster, but in the long run (heck, within the next few minutes probably), I'll end up with a much larger army thanks to my stronger mineral income.
On triple raxing:
I don't like triple rax much at all, even against zerg, for a couple of reasons:
1. In the early-mid game, if 2 rax worth of M&M can't kill something, 3 rax worth of M&M probably won't do that much better, especially against lurkers or heavy sunkens. 3-4 burrowed lurkers will annihilate just about any amount of infantry you throw at it. In just about any situation I'd rather have 2 rax of troops with tank support over 3 rax of troops. You really cannot go offensive against more than 3 lurkers ("running them over" with 3 rax of troops does not work) with just infantry. You can only hold them off.
2. You have to tech against zerg, or you will eventually be killed by guardians or well-supported lurkers. 3 rax is too slow on the teching for my tastes. Mobile detection is an absolute necessity in the midgame against someone who is using lurkers; a good zerg player can wear down your comsat pretty quickly by spreading his lurkers out, putting them at ramps, etc.
Don't get me wrong now, triple raxing is a great way to go in team games where your opponent can cover your slow-teching butt.
To Whoop:
That's another, less expensive way of doing it. However, I'm generally sending marines through the middle to patrol expansions and scope out the zerg base, so my chances of "stumbling on" such a large pack of zerglings are pretty good unless you have them somewhere particularly inconvenient. Furthermore, burrowing does, as I said in my report and as Silver`Thunder said, come in handy on defense anyway, which you'll need to make sure my attack force doesn't make as big of a mess of your base as the lings make of mine. So if you do opt for the burrowing defense, why not make your counteroffensive a little bit more of a sure-shot?
To Sp|ne: The mutas were a decent choice. By the time his lurker drop would have reached my base, I would have had tanks out already. He didn't go hydraling at all, btw. In fact, I don't think he ever used an unmorphed hydra the whole game. I really think early zerglings can be effective... There's a point before the academy kicks in where Terran is actually pretty vulnerable against a large pack of lings. I stress again that the burrowed ling + sunken defense is a sweet move. As for the offensive, he shouldn't have engaged me directly; a better idea would have been to hit my attack with the sunken/burrowing defense and THEN dash the 24+ lings into my base.
As for the assertion that I should have built more firebats, yeah, I should have :) It is, however, my general policy to be a real stinge with my gas against zerg, because tech is essential to keep you alive in the midgame.
Thanks again for all the feedback,
SisterRay(RLA) | | #23 T_Mac (on-tor-blr-a58-02-648.idirect.com)[22029] | | I thought i would add a nice bitch move i pulled on vanilla the other day. I played some guy from a channel, and didnt bother checking his stats, and assumed that he was a newbie. He was terran, i was zerg (duh, why else would i say this :/
Anyways, since i underestimated him, i didnt put up much defense at the natural i took, and it was killed. I knew that the 12 lings i had just hatched werent enough to kill his force of around 12 rines/2 tanks, so i burrowed those 12 lings below my ramp, and waited while 8 more hatched. When i saw him begin to come up my ramp, i sent those 8 down, while unburrowing the 12 that were sitting underneath his army. Talk about <b>OWNAGE!</b> | | #24 MakeADeathWish (sys47.hou.wt.net)[22046] | | | Nice report. I have one questoin for you though:) Whenever I am terran against a zerg I use to do the same as you and upgrade the range and get my marines outside of their base and walk the lurks all the way back, but I ran into the problem of some zerg dropping the lurks in my base really quickly:( I was just curious how you deal with this? This is why now I only bring a handful of marines in fromt of their base to warn me, and hopefully slow him down. Any comments on how you handle this would be appreciated, thanks! | #25  (real.nauticom.net)[22064] | | One time, when I was Terran vs Zerg, I was hit with a bunch of early lings... maybe 12-18, I forget. Anyway, I killed a bunch with marines and SCVs, but he had split them up in the process and then burrowed in my base. He then kept sending more lings to my choke, and if I put too much attention there, he'd unburrow and attack my SCVs or depots for a quick drop in supply. I couldn't get enough detection and forces to keep this from working, and splitting up your marines makes them easy pickin's. I did hold this off a bit more with a bunker then comstat, but it held my attention for too long and I lost the game.
Of course, I'm not a 1300 player, but it was an effective strategy, since he did it so cautiously.
BTW: Good report. | | #26 SisterRay(RLA) (darkshadows.resnet.tamu.edu)[22071] | | Well, lurker drops can only happen so fast... I suppose I can sort of "feel" them coming when my direct attack doesn't receive as much resitance as it should at any given point in time. With practice, you develop a feel for how soon lurkers should happen with single hatch, double hatch, and fast expansion builds... If the game reaches that point and no lurkers happen, you're probably about to get dropped. I can have tanks out by the time the drop hits my base, so if I think a drop is coming, I'll set a bunker in my peon line with a tank or two near it. Turrets can be helful, but aren't necessary if you either have sci vessels on the way or lots of comsat energy. I use a semi-wallin build to make it hard for the lurkers to walk into my peon line. Beyond that, I just micro whatever units are coming out of my production building to finish off anything the tanks and bunker didn't deal with.
Oh, and for security's sake, when I'm going heavy offensive against zerg (usually the case when someone lurker drops), I'll start a CC in my natural. If the lurker drop is going to wipe your peon line, just flee them there and resume mining :) A good terran offensive is usually enough to make lurker drops a last-ditch effort, and if that last ditch can't finish off your economy, they lose. Master the art of anti-zerg offensive and you'll probably be startig to run over their base as the lurker drop hits. I've actually taken out one of those really fast 4-lurker drops (where they float the overlord by your ledge early and walk the lurkers to the drop point) using 8 stimmed, range upgraded marines and a medic, because he couldn't hit anything important without having to walk them around a bunch of supply depots :)
SisterRay(RLA)
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