| #1 Executor[44909] |
| p18-tnt2.akl.ihug.co.nz |
| First again <I>!!</I> |
| #2 Executor[44910] |
| cache3.ihug.co.nz |
| <font color="yellow"><h4><I><B>oh damn it got double posted.. anyway its awesome to get a first comment on a Heartcutter's BR.. Nice strats there but in TvP games i always seem to lose to goon containement. I have to push all the way to their base while they expand and use sheer force to run me over (I tried deep six but i doesn't work against storm abusers> The strat in your BR seems to only cover reaver drop defense can u explain (maybe in your next br how to counter goon containment effectively. thanks </font></h></B> |
| #3 AgentN[44911] |
| spider-wi031.proxy.aol.com |
I do not think this is the real Heartcutter, IMO...But, this strat is useful...obviously, but don't most people know how to use it? I think that most people already either don't use a CC defense....or they just plain go with the bunker, turret, tank Defense....IMO..
Ciao
The Agent |
| #4 Talon[44912] |
| cx110054-a.pwy1.sdca.home.com |
| not really a report... |
#5  [44919] |
| 189-161.sg.cgocable.ca |
| Test.... |
| #6 Sp|nE[44921] |
| dialup0823-pri.voicenet.com |
| i don't do this .... i have enough micro as terran as it is, and i simply aren't capable of doing that. |
| #7 CaRnEvIL[44927] |
| 93.p1.dialup.gru.net |
I admit, the bunkerless CC defense is a nice idea, but I'm afraid it just doesn't cut it versus skilled protoss droppers.
For one, u have WAY too few turrets. One just isn't enough. U need at least three to deter drops. With ur build, a toss player can just drop zealots into your peon line and use the tanks' splash to kill scv's. Temp drops would own this hard too. And I noticed that in some of the examples, the turret is quite far from the peon line. I wouldn't be surprised if a toss could drop a few DTs into ur line of crystals and just put them on hold, out of the turret's range. U need those turrets to force the toss away from your worker line.
Second, Spider Mines are FAR more useful in stopping drops than just two tanks. U put the turrets in around your CC, tanks next to the turrets, and put mines where u think they'll land.
Third...what's wrong with devoting a bunker and four marines to protecting your CC? Normally, u'd put a bunker by ur choke, but the wall-in lets you skimp on ramp defense early on. So instead, but a bunker by ur CC, and use mines, tanks, and the wall-in to defend the choke. 3 turrets+2 tanks+mines+1 bunker = drop denial.
Obviously, ur a solid terran player, and I don't doubt that, but this whole 1 turret+2 tank thing won't cut it against good droppers. I'm on B-net a lot as Carnevil...look me up if u wanna see what I mean.
|
| #8 Blade|IcE|[44935] |
| 209-239-204-113.oak.jps.net |
this wont work because:
A-temps have enough range to kill peons out of range of tanks
B-drop a zeal or some other unit then drop a reaver or templar and storm, its quite easy to defeat
C-I dont like wallins (IMO) cuz it gives away map control WAY too early in the game
D-Deep Six ownz, but u gotta use Vessels with EMP which works better than assassin ghosts from my experience (sorry HC =[)
Blade |
#9  [44937] |
|
| This is a great thing to do. As long as you can afford to leave 2 tanks there. Basically the whole idea is solid. There is no reason that you can't add extra defense if you are so inclined. The best thing about this tactic, is that dtemps, and zealots cannot get to the tanks. I think reaver scarabs can though. Also if you def matrix the tanks you've got a VERY good drop defense. Goons won't be able to kill them, and 10 zealots can't surround them and beat on the tanks at close range cause of the depots. In ADDITION, zealots sometimes will attack NOTHING, because they are trying to get to the tank. The toss has to specifically micro the zealots to attack something else or they will just wander around foolishly. |
| #10 Jesse[44938] |
| we-24-31-39-45.we.mediaone.net |
| Heartcutter is my friggin' hero. |
| #11 CaRnEvIL[44939] |
| 93.p1.dialup.gru.net |
Johnny...I agree that this is a good idea, but relying on it like HC seems to do is quite risky. U eat even one temp drop and the toss player has a pretty big advantage. And since he's got shuttles, he can take the islands, which is very hard for terrans to drop early on.
By skimping on mines and leaving his peon area un-turreted, HC is just asking for drops. Sorry, but it's the truth=[ |
| #12 Heartcutter[44962] |
| adsl-63-198-40-138.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net |
The 3:00 can be improved upon. The first tank should be adjacent to the actual CC. I sometimes even go one better, and keep two tanks next to the CC.
Carnevil, I have to tell you that this strat works. It keeps them reavers and DT's out of my backyard very effectively.
Storm is always a problem, but what are you gonna do?
-HC |
| #13 [44973] |
| HNW0511.RESNET-STUDENT.UPENN.EDU |
ok this is the real one
to the imposer up there: I recommend you stop posing as me or any staff members at BR.com. I had talked to Johnny about this and he said he will use the ban tool on you if you keep doing this. |
| #14 L'iLNips[Fatal][44974] |
| 209.217.148.159 |
| I just don't see how u spend so much time doing this...and go on with normal playing..but maybe u can..i dunno |
| #15 <font color="#FF0000">Twip</font><font color="#452622">[44978] |
| port-1-40-56k.gallipolis.zoomnet.net |
<font color="#FF0000" size="2" face="Arial">Just takes a little memorizing. Course people pick it apart because anything in SC CAN be picked apart. Nothing's perfect guys, come on, god. This is actually pretty good too :)
*rubs his Heartcutter statue* |
| #16 [44979] |
| 209.67.161.34 |
Well, actually, to L'iLNips[Fatal], if you are adept to this defense concept with practice, it will lower your worries on your mineral line and put your extra attention on your more needed micro at the front line (or expansion attempt).
It came at time when I wish I can do anything this good to keep drops from wrecking directly into my min line, but it was no avail. I kept luck as my guardian, and scatter some siege tanks at my main.
Question to Heartcutter: Does this wall in help protect you from mass hydra drop? |
| #17 -xdragon-[44980] |
| 209.67.161.34 |
Well, actually, to L'iLNips[Fatal], if you are adept to this defense concept with practice, it will lower your worries on your mineral line and put your extra attention on your more needed micro at the front line (or expansion attempt).
It came at time when I wish I can do anything this good to keep drops from wrecking directly into my min line, but it was no avail. I kept luck as my guardian, and scatter some siege tanks at my main.
Question to Heartcutter: Does this wall in help protect you from mass hydra drop? |
| #18 Activus[44989] |
| sdn-ar-002nyrochP232.dialsprint.net |
The 12 position problem can be solved by putting the depot 1 matrix up, it walls it in without getting an scv stuck. I have a decent terran vs protoss and I use a bunker-less defense, I rarely make any bunkers the entire game. I use an engineering bay to cover up a turret and then place a few spider mines, and only use 1 tank. Yes there are drops that will beat this hard, but from the way I play it usually works. I would'nt spend this much time during a game developing a defense like that, it's usually better to have a small drop defense and stay on the offense. Course I don't Deep Six either, I always metal. Maybe I should make a strat post :-O.
Activus |
| #19 TheCabbit[44993] |
| bgm-24-94-57-110.stny.rr.com |
| I want a real report :( |
| #20 [68]Unknown[44994] |
| 209.128.34.1 |
Of course, you have a good strategy, but it is near good enough, turret range can't go completely to the minerals therefore dt's rock all. reavers,yes but dt no.
Well try to make a br where he drops in it.
Play someone good also please. |
| #21 Fox^1[44997] |
| 01-063.039.popsite.net |
Ahhhhh I can just feel my terran getting better as I read this.
Fox^1 |
| #22 CaRnEvIL[45000] |
| 233.p1.dialup.gru.net |
To Twip: The only reason I'm "picking this apart" is because I'm a terran player and want to see them own toss. It's not an attack on HC, just an observation of his strat. I'm only trying to help.
To Activus: Covering the turret with the engineering bay is kinda neat, but 1 turret+1 tank just won't cut it. The mines are a really good idea though, and I'm glad to see someone else using them for defense. And metal is the way to beat Protoss... |
| #23 Snakeyez[45007] |
| spc-isp-tor-uas-11-41.sprint.ca |
| I dont think doing the bunkerless cc thing is a good idea on alot of the spots u can easily drop a reaver out of tank range and hit scvs. Also this takes way to much micro, thats not really worth it and the tanks that u place in the bunkerless parts u can never use again. |
| #24 Blank[45010] |
| 137.hartford-03-04rs.ct.dial-access.att.net |
Gawd I hate bunkerless defense :P Wut a waste of 2 tanks early on :P
Anyways, no terran defense is going to be able to stop a templar/zealot storm-bomb, it's simply impossible unless the toss makes a mistake or you totally surrond yourself in turrets :P Otherwise he'll drop zealot first, draw fire, storm with templar and leave :[ bye bye scv's....
Oh well.
Blank |
| #25 [45021] |
| HNW0511.RESNET-STUDENT.UPENN.EDU |
Well, there is always this good thing called
"Run like heck!" |
| #26 CaRnEvIL[45025] |
| 223.p1.dialup.gru.net |
That's why u use mines and three turrets Blank. If he comes in close, he'll lose the shuttle to the turrets. Land outside and face the mines+tanks. Having vultures around to kill the temps ain't a bad idea either. Oh, and if you go three turrets+mines, u can actually get away with using only one tank in the early going.
To HC...I believe this works...to a point. But a 2 zeal+1 reaver drop would really screw you over if done right. Why? Because ur turrets don't prevent the toss player from landing his stuff INSIDE your peon line. When this happens, ur tanks work against you because of splash damage. Then the toss has micro on his side: drop one zeal to take the tank hits, then drop reaver and kill some scvs. Pick the reaver back up, then repeat with the other zealot. 10+ SCVs dead=[
As for temp drops...this is the bane of Terran existence. But they can be stopped with mines and proper depot placement. As I said earlier, having a few vults around doesn't hurt either.
|
| #27 SiRLoSeALoT[45042] |
| 65.oakland-05-10rs16rt.ca.dial-access.att.net |
| I can see this working if I remembered to do it, although I would prolly want to add 1 more turret in there somewhere. Minesare always great vs drops if you place them right, toherwise you'll be doing yourself more harm then good. People seem to think this was supposed to be the end all toss drops godly invincible strat which I don't believe is what HC intended. Take it for what it's worth and use it when you can/need to. |
| #28 [45080] |
| 1Cust34.tnt6.lax1.da.uu.net |
| u don't waste 2 tanks. when people get their scv's stuck(like me) u can use dropships to get them out. but a hate having to do that. this also works for toss and zerg. so basicly its only a waste of tanks till you get dropships. |
| #29 §tarFreAk[45091] |
| d147.as2.chcg1.il.voyager.net |
| Carnevil i agree with u all the way with the mines and vultures. Mines stop reavers and temps. With three turrets+2tanks+mines=no drop. |
| #30 Blue~Devil[45093] |
| dialups-365.palmer.mtaonline.net |
| This stuff is way over my head... i dont play terran that much cuz i cant really macro that good and i lilke watching the battles:D anyway every time i do play as terran i always overdue the depots... but remember i isnt as good as heart or vegas wish i was though=[ |
| #31 CaRnEvIL[45100] |
| 196.p1.dialup.gru.net |
Neato StarFreak...another Terran who uses mines for d:) I think that's one mistake a lot of people make when going metal...they either use just a few mines, or skip them altogether. If you go mines (and you should), u need lots of em.
I'm thinking of writing a BR/Strat Guide for this...anybody think itz worth it? |
| #32 Carni[45109] |
| cf3k-4-2.paradise.net.nz |
| Yes it's worth it. Odd how my name is so similar to yours. |
| #33 Grey2000[45115] |
| spider-wg024.proxy.aol.com |
| Ya know, that whole 12:00 problem would be solved if there were a new patch allowing people to choose which side a new unit comes out of a building from. Don't think it'll happen, though. |
| #34 -Futch[45137] |
| 203.10.64.92 |
Augmenting the outlined defense with 2-3 more tanks an you have enough D to wipe out a 8 OL hydra drop. Throw in Irradiate and it is Ultra/Hydra/Lurker proof...but not Plague :D
I have never been successfully Reaver/DT dropped since I started craming Tanks and Depots together...but i usually throw up 1 more turret and mines ta boot.
One caveat, is that DWeb fucks the whole thing up...but you should be Goliathing/Locking down by then....If not pray, just pray.
sieges. |
| #35 Elendale[45141] |
| 205-213-43-216.sdlax.k12.wi.us |
For that guy up there who is wondering if this is real HC, check the ISPs. This one is at least the same whoever did a few of the other HC reports ;)
-Elendale (Nice D, btw, My only problem is that I don't plan far enough ahead enough to get building placement right) |
| #36 probe[45143] |
| dt121ne2.tampabay.rr.com |
3 tanks 2-3 turrets and 4-6 scattered marines give you the same effect, only more powerful, movable, and much easier on the micro impaired
just sharing my terran wisdom :D |
| #37 Casper...[45145] |
| odo.computerstudies.ca |
| Play Activus toss vs terran and you'll see. You'll never see his peons unless he really messes up. You will see alot of tanks though. Like 40 of em. |
| #38 <font color=yellow> |]agomar[45153] |
| gateway.ncdsb.com |
| Huk, just <b> mind control <b> the tanks, or <b> def matrix. </b> |
| #39 <font color=yellow> |]agomar[45154] |
| gateway.ncdsb.com |
OMFG probe it also costs 3x more
But it may be all that works . . . do you have any idea how tough it is as Terran using ground troops to combat a drop of 4 ultralisks, with hydras/lurker support? In one 1v1 game I had excellent recon and saw the ovies moving towards me, so I moved 8 tanks in a ring around my cc, while attacking with the two wraiths I had . . . I didnt kill a single oview before everything was dropped . . . complete havoc was wrought, and although I managed to survive I lost nearly all my tanks and half my base in the chaos of the splash damage, along with all my scvs ;(.
I managed to win, but only very, very barely, after 46 minutes! |
| #40 [45156] |
| aps.ne.mediaone.net |
| woot |
| #41 CaRnEvIL[45158] |
| 119.p1.dialup.gru.net |
Casper...itz good Activus defends well, but u could have 26182182 siege tanks around your base and I could still temp drop you. You have to have the supporting turrets+mines to stop them.
Now it seems we're talking anti-zerg drop, which is quite a bit different. Since marines+meds are your main weapon, its actually better to create a little more space for yourself to move around in. A tight little wall of depots+turrets+tanks around ur CC is needed, but after that u want to leave space so stimmed marines can run in and stop the drop.
As for the ultra thing, well, that sucks Dragomar. But remember, the Ultras BY THEMSELVES are easier to deal with, so clearing out the hydras+lurkers is the first step. Oh, and spider mines do pretty damn good against ultras:) |
| #42 [45159] |
| exchange1.sensable.com |
1) I want to see a real report. Or rather, I'd love to see a few screenshots here of how this repels drops and such. I don't doubt that it does, and I really like the strat; mostly why I say this is because a) this is a BR site and b) it'll lead to less of this theoretical nonsense of people claiming this does/does not stop drops. If there are some examples included, it helps solidify how the defense works.
2) If you guys are interested, feel free to move some of the discussion to appropriate strat forums. It's much easier to respond to peoples' specific comments on a thread layout. The comments section here is flat because I think it was designed to not be as interactive.
3) Bunkerless does not "waste" anything -- you need tanks and turrets anyway, this just surrounds them with structures to make them harder to kill. If you're going to be putting tanks in your mins line, you might as well surround them with depots that you're already making. The only reason I'd think not to use this is if you require siege tank mobility... but honestly, if you have to unsiege a tank line in your mineral line and move it somewhere to stop a drop, then you're probably dead anyway. I usually keep one fixed tank surrounded by structs, and another nearby that I can move.
4) I've heard a lot of people talk about this 3 "ring of turrets" thing. It's definitely effective, but I wouldn't advocate using that as a general base defense layout in early/mid because often it proves unnecessary and you don't want to make a habit out of building lots of static D. This is called "bunkerless" because it pushes the limits on how little you rely on for D. If your recon shows you need more, then build more. Even if you build 3 turrets, I can still devise a drop to get past it. The point isn't to make an impenetrable defense, it is to use minimal resources towards D that is very very effective for the cost spent and works pretty well against most attacks. If you can't manage that, go ahead and mine your mineral line and build a turret triangle, but I only go for that when recon shows a very heavy drop.
K also while we're talking about anti-Zerg (again this is not the place to do so, but what the heck I might as well add my commentary :-b ), I find that depot mazes work pretty well, despite what others have said. It delays lurks from running straight into your mineral line, it makes it difficult for the whole drop to be placed in one location, and it makes your tanks a lot more effective since units will get confused trying to reach your tanks. It's hard to explain wo screenshots, and it's really a tradeoff between all of that vs. having open ground to facilitate quick-response from M&M's, but I've always had more luck with the depot mazing. Maybe I'll post a BR sometime :-b.
|
| #43 [45160] |
| HNW0511.RESNET-STUDENT.UPENN.EDU |
To Comment #40,
You have been warned Mr.imposer. Face the ban now. |
| #44 blah[45164] |
| 63.210.199.30 |
| i think you mean imposter. (-: |
| #45 British[FTL][45165] |
| 204.245.4.7 |
Woohoo! First comment! Oh, er, oops, sorry.
I think the whole point of this strat is that it DOESN'T COST YOU ANYTHING EXTRA - it utilizes units and structures that you would have built anyway. You're just positioning them a little better than that mass of depots the average Terran player ends up with. Sure, it CAN be dropped on, but that turret is walled in too, besides, you're not spending that early 300$ and can be tank-pushing your enemy that much sooner to the point that they might not be able to GET a drop off on you.
|
| #46 British[FTL][45167] |
| 204.245.4.7 |
Woohoo! First comment! Er, Dang! I keep falling for that.
Anyway, your reflex response when you see an incoming shuttle you can't stop should be to immediately Maynard all your peons to an expansion. This will evacuate them as quickly as possible. (As opposed to just ordering them to go stand in a corner somewhere - they will trip on each other and take forever to evacuate.) Then when the threat is eliminated, Maynard them back to your main.
Again, your defense isn't there to STOP an attack, if you are actually putting up that much hardware there you're probably turtling too much. Your job is merely to DETER an attack until you can respond appropriately with your offensive army.
|
| #47 Limp_BIzkit666[45177] |
| 206.117.45.185 |
i think this is especially a good strat for those tank pushers....
i like to wall-in, then tank push as terran, and it usually leaves my main for drops...
by usuing the tanks i would get, and turrets, as i would get, and later using dropships as i would get, it is a very good way to do it...
the only drawback? if you mess up on one building? you might have to either cancel it, or destory it...
also, i think it MIGHT be a little slow for early toss drops....maybe.. i don't know, but it seems like it could take more than it would take for a quick reaver/goon drop..
oh well....
300 mineral for bunker and marine, or 1 minute "wasted" trying to arrange the buidlings and USE the MINES that you would get if metalling....
byeya
p.s-it is a good idea, and the only thing i would do is maybe add another turret...uh, nevermind.. i would rather spend that 100 on a turret on the place i'm pushing..
GW HC!! WHO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! |
| #48 Limp_BIzkit666[45178] |
| 204.140.185.225 |
if you wanna see a real report, go see mine.. =]
byeya
p.s-ban that imposter. =[ |
| #49 CaRnEvIL[45206] |
| 89.p1.dialup.gru.net |
To commenter #42...
U are right in saying that recon is key. Obviously, if u see a hard core DT rush, then choke defenses are the first priority. Same thing with quick goons. But when u see a drop coming, u must protect ur cc, and three turrets is the optimal number. Sure u can devise a drop to defeat it, but now ur making the toss work to break something that takes NO micro on your part, leaving you free to scout/expand/push him. This is how terrans safely engage protoss offensively. And u CANNOT put the mines in ur mineral line. The turrets are used to keep droppers away from the workers, and forces them to land in the mines away from your line.
And Limp Bizkit: Yes, this build is extremely open to the fast reaver+2 zeal drop. With good micro, I could wipe out all of those SCVs without breaking a sweat. However, turrets+mines = no early drop:) And as for quickly pushing the toss, well, that's exactly what he wants you to do. Lay some mines, toss up some turrets, and bring in the tanks. And just as you bring in the tanks, u get dropped=[ |
| #50 Darth Sidious[45208] |
| ap01-d01-038.dial.freesurf.nl |
i love your bunkerless defence, i use it every game (except vs terran) it saved me a lot of games, it just works real well. of course there are things that can be a problem, but there always are for every strat. and to those who complain about having to use 2 tanks: a filled bunker + a tank costs more and does less, the only thing which costs less is no defence at all.
heartcutter, your TvP strats helped me a lot, i do quite well in TvP now. i would just like to see some of your terran vs terran or zerg strats as well. especially TvT. |
| #51 Heartcutter[45230] |
| 216.32.176.93 |
Thanks for the props! It's comments like these that make it all worthwile. I'll build out a path that should be used for TvT. Zerg is usually a dual-rax build, factory, expansion path.
But there is something quite special I saw in a 2v2 game that was used against me (me zerg, him terran). I'll need to verify that it can be used 1v1, but I have to say, it was POWERFUL against an early exp zerg.
-HC
|
| #52 CaRnEvIL[45274] |
| 129.p1.dialup.gru.net |
| Hey HC...hope this doesn't sound like bashing or anything. I think those of us posting are just trying to help and add to the terran game. Mad props DO go to u...we all know ur contributions;) |
| #53 CaRnEvIL[45276] |
| 129.p1.dialup.gru.net |
| And seriously, find me on b-net HC (I been looking for you) and play me a couple times so I can show u what I mean. I may just be missing something and u could be totally right. |
| #54 CaRnEvIL[45303] |
| 23.p1.dialup.gru.net |
| Oh, and to British[FLT]..."deter an attack until you can respond appropriately with your offensive army." Haha...ur a funny guy. U have ANY idea what terran response time is? Bout 2182712 hours. Know how long a temp drop takes? 2-3 SECONDS. Flat. U obviously haven't played any serious droppers, or you would know. |
| #55 Elendale[45399] |
| 205-213-43-238.sdlax.k12.wi.us |
Carnevil, or whatever your name is (alternative caps is annoying *sniff*) I think that guy meant to attack with the troops sitting in your base that were built from those 4-8 'rax in your main (you ARE macroing right?). You might say that those should be out doing something, and you are probably right, but I always seem to find 'rines hiding from their jobs in my base. Course, I'm a lousy player too...
-Elendale (Say HC, when are you usually on b.net? And perhaps what time zone you are in also :)) |
| #56 Carnevil[45439] |
| 140.p1.dialup.gru.net |
No alternate caps:P
4-8 Rax? I think u underestimate the speed with which drops come. Drops occur WELL before you have an expansion, much less 4-8 Rax. Besides, making marines+meds against a toss dropper is suicide, and u won't have ghosts in time to be effective. Sorry, but metal IS the way, and it is best used to defend first. |
| #57 probe[45478] |
| dt121n9c.tampabay.rr.com |
wow yer dumb dag
yer not meant to stop big ass hydra drops anyways, by the way, i thought that was an anti PROTOSS defense?
uhh grow a brain, thanks? |
| #58 Elendale[45523] |
| 205-213-43-142.sdlax.k12.wi.us |
Not me. I can usually get 6 rax+BCs+at least 12 ghosts with lockdown before I so much as see a reaver ;)
In all seriousness, though, marines+tanks are probably the best thing for stopping the drop. Gotta stim the rines so the run faster though. Its like stopping a reaver with zerglings and hydras. Its always fun when they don't realise you have 6 marines waiting outside their site range and pick the reaver up to drop next to the tank. And yes, you CAN get 4-8 rax before the drop. If you can't tell, I can't play metal at all.
-Elendale (Wish I could, but I just live without it *sigh*) |
| #59 Guawan[45530] |
| sdu246-76.ppp.algonet.se |
the best bukerless CC defend must be to use the bug to drive in your tanks under CC while it's landing and siege there. noone can get near it.
hmm or is that regarded as cheating? I really don't know but probably it is. |
| #60 Dr.Demento:)[45566] |
| cx924758-a.fed1.sdca.home.com |
| Nice idea, but maybe use a building that is more expendable, like an academy,or armory or hey why not bunkers that are empty!!!!. When you loose a supply depot, the slows down your unit production. I could sit out side you base an destroy those depots with one reaver or lurker, which looks portected by you're own buildings because you can't get any units though. Granted I wouldn't get to your CC but hey I've just stalled you entire operation, and Next Time I attack, it will be with a large immense fleet of blood, death, and destruction. |
| #61 Tactican[45569] |
| cx924758-a.fed1.sdca.home.com |
| Gee thats a brilliant use of a blatantly obvious bug in a game. I mean how long did it take you to realize that the computer will attack the first enemy entity it runs into. The entire concept of the building defence is to create a wall that they have to go through to get to your base. Making that the emphasis of your early defence is literaly asking for an ass whooping. Terrans have the ability to build bunkers for a reason its called surprise. A bunker gives the already frail marine units a shelter to hide in and fire out of en mass. But the fact that the Bunker allows you to garrison units as an option allows for one of the largest fients in the early game. And the great part is that every race in the game at this point has the ability to do this, it is only a matter of abusing it. If you want to place your supply depots in front of me go for it, ill take them and the tank that is hiding behind it. This the same concept that created Vichy, if you are going to make a bunkerless defence then you better have a free form defence to seal of your opponent. Other wise much like the Cartisian Wall that the French set up after WWI your opponent will walk right around you. |
| #62 E5C4P3[S][45579] |
| mail.coral-springs.com |
This Message is mainly regarding to Carnevil (with no alternative caps, blah) I am really on his side about the use of mines b/c as a hardcore protoss player I find it pretty intimidating when I lose a reaver and zeals to some cheap mines. It definately stops temp drops, and is really cost-effective when using them(75 minerals for a vulture and 100 minerals and gas for 3 125 dmg mines compared to a 150 mineral and 100 gas tank, and 150 minerals and gas for seige capability, and lastly, spending money for extra depots to fully defend early on). And BTW, i am really looking forward to play you again someday so please be so graciously leave an ICQ # (if you have one, of course) or just respond and let me know where you hang. My email is : e5c4p3_s@yahoo.com. Thanx
PS- I didnt know your terran was your best considering we played pvp all 2 games we played (and you won by a longshot). I hope my unit figures were right =| |
| #63 [MrFurious][45582] |
| pega.globetrotter.net |
Tactician,
You really don't get it do you? its primarily an anti-drop strat. In the early game, once you have walled in your choke on LT, your next major threat can come in the form of a drop. In that situation, the greatest threat to your tanks are zealots or DTs coming within range and swiping them. The depots force those DTs to attack the depots FIRST while the tanks pound away happily.
The reason why Bunkerless CC defense is cool is because a bunker costs 100 mins plus marines to man it. Thats 2 marines, one vulture or even a supply depot that you could use. in the early game every penny counts! Never mind the fact that you may be going all metal and no rines so bunkers are the furthest thing from your mind then...
Don't compare history with starcraft it has no relation and makes you look like a complete newb.
Cheers,
MF |
| #64 <font color=yellow><b>xero</b></font>[45597] |
| 209.127.79.145 |
the crappy part of this strat is <b>that your tanks cant get out !!</b> hahaha, j/k i dont play terran so i dont really care :-) but its good that you do this, for the good of the terran people ...
<font color=yellow><b>xero</b></font> |
| #65 CaRnEvIL[45621] |
| 42.p1.dialup.gru.net |
To Elendale: Are you a BGH lamer, or just on crack all the time? Let me get this straight. U get 6 rax+BCS+ghosts before you see a reaver? Then one of two things is true: 1)U have a mineral hack; 2) U play SUPER-CHOBO players. In either case, ur still gonna get screwed by better toss players. I'm on B-net quite a bit, usually in nohunters. I'm on as Carnevil or [w]hErO. Look me up and I'll be happy to demonstrate what I'm talking about.
To E5C4P3[S]: I think I remember you...thought your name was ESCAP3 tho. I usually hang in NH, or sometimes in my clan channel, but I'm always on B-Net. It would be cool to play again...I'll look for you;) |
| #66 CaRnEvIL[45623] |
| 42.p1.dialup.gru.net |
Mr. Furious...your point is well taken about the depots blocking zeals/dts, but guess what: archons can hit the tanks OVER the depots if positioned correctly. And yes, toss players, archons are good to drop. Theyy don't set mines off, have good acceleration, and the splash damage is awesome for killing SCV's.
Oh, and Elendale, the main threat of drops is not necessarily reavers. That is just the lead in attack. The true threat is the temp drop. Done properly, a single speedy shuttle zips over your base. Two zeals come out first, taking the mines/tanks fire. Then two temps drop out and storm everything in sight, and the shuttle never even stops moving. Build all the rines you want...storm owns 'em every time. And the real bitch is that 10 seconds later, another shuttle speeds over your base and does it all over again. |
| #67 [MoS]IceFoxxx[45683] |
| klagproxy.highway.telekom.at |
Hmmm... Idea: you wall yourself in, opponent gets happy 'cause of three reasons:
1) you sit in that little box of yours and can't get OUT (dropships, yes. corsair own them.)
2) I dunno how long it takes you to form that wall, but surely a few minutes? I doubt if you have those minutes if theres a protoss around that quick-techs on dt, not to mention a zerg (if you see a zergling, he has probably 10000 of his friends with him).
3) One great thing about marines in bunkers (for defensive purposes) is the TYPE of damage they cause, that is, no splash. I figure I could send a single zealot to your scvs, thus sacrificing him, but taking out lots of your miners due to the immense splash your walled-in tanks will do.
*figures* zealot+shuttle = 300 minerals
wall-in + around 6-10 miners = *figures hard* erm... dunno, but significantly more than 300 minerals I guess.
@ carnevil: yes, spider mines are good, but as mentioned before, archons don't trigger them, and they can take a couple of tank-hits before *booom*. I use spiders mainly to annoy my opponent (ever seen a vulture drop *g*).
Marines HOOOOOOO,
[MoS]IceFoxxx |
| #68 Casper...[45685] |
| on-tor-blr-a58-01-74.look.ca |
| You dipshits, bunkerless will absolutely rape a 2-3 shuttle payload. It performs vs 2-3 reavers where a bunk/tank/turret setup doesn't. The invulnerability to scarabs/zeals almost creates a situation where it's like you have a wraith pressuring the shuttle. That's why you seal the tanks in people-- without a direct path, scarabs will not detonate on target. |
| #69 Casper...[45686] |
| on-tor-blr-a58-01-74.look.ca |
BTW, good protoss players tend to dragoon rush with a fork to either reaver follow-up, single expand with obs n a third gate, dbl expand with citadel and legs, or goon rush with follow up dt. Like Mark4 says, you can generally do two of the following 3: mass, expand, or tech. What you CANNOT do is attempt a goon rush with followup dt THEN attempt another followup dt drop. That'll get ya killed.
I contend that the best protoss players tend to go massive ground with prioritized zealot legs after feeling comfortable with their dragoon mass vs mechanical. So going bunkerless is really a moot point. For a protoss, getting drawn into a micro war where you're managing a shuttle for 30 seconds is generally a bad idea anyways. |
| #70 *@![MAX]!@*[45708] |
| brk-78-211.tm.net.my |
| U think that is enough!!!?? What if your oppenent is Zerg? Spawn Broodlings would clear up your tank n what about lurks? zerglings drop? guardians rush? that strats is a total shit!! u wanna challenge wif me? |
| #71 Soul-Stone[Tls][45715] |
| 195.217.163.200 |
| Aggree's with *@![MAX]!@*, this strat is totally wank, if u do want to protect your SCV's from early dropz all u need to do is build a few depo'z in a straight line running off your end mineral mine. Then place 2-3 sieged tankz spaced out within the middle of your scv's. This is far more easier to do and doest eat up all of your micro & macro time. This defence allso covers your entire base although I do aggree that all Terran players should Block the front ramp ;) Laffo16@hotmail.com if u want ne (non-broodwar) tipz. |
| #72 [MrFurious][45726] |
| pega.globetrotter.net |
Please explain to me why you all are so dense?
Bunkerless CC is meant to replace bunker/turret/tank drop defense. Your arguments against are strats that would crush bunker/turret/tank???
1)dweb would own b/t/t as well as bunkerless so that point is moot.
2)Spawn broodling >>> tanks in any situation so that is moot as well.
3) The archons argument is good but the key is the phrase "if placed properly". this might just buy the time you need to EMP the fucker...
4) You need to place depots down anyway so if you practice this enough it will become second nature and your depot placement will become automatic...
You guys need to come up with better arguments than that..
Cheers,
MF
|
| #73 doh[45728] |
| 209.127.79.145 |
| he who rages at his master ... is mastered by his rage :-) |
| #74 CaRnEvIL[45732] |
| 89.p1.dialup.gru.net |
Oh boy. Here we go.
Casper...take a look at HC's pics of Bunkerless D. See how there's only one turret guarding his main? 2-3 shuttle drops would OWN that. Hard. And to boot, he's not using any mines. "like a wraith pressuring the shuttle..." WTF is that? Shuttles move, turrets don't. Duh. And you don't micro for 30 seconds. You micro for like 5 sceonds, and in return, you'll get like a minute of breathing room against all but the BEST terrans. That means you can expand, mass ground, and roll over the terran. But the whole thing starts with drops. Sorry, but this goon containment shit just ain't cuttin' it anymore.
Uhhm, Soul-Stone, we're talking BW here, not vanilla. That's quite different:P
Mr. Furious...
1) Dweb comes too late if a terran is on his game, so talking about it at all is dumb. If a toss has shuttles with temps+archons+zeals+reavers+dweb, and he didn't break the bank to do it (ie he still has a goon army containing you) ur pretty much dead.
2) Broodling is quite rare. I've played maybe 2 zergies in the last 3 months that used Broodling versus my terran. I beat both of them anyway. And besides, Broodling range is still weak, and with good turret placement, they really have to work to get it off. And that is exactly what the terran wants: to have the other player waste time microing drops against a virtually undroppable defense. Meanwhile, the terran is expanding/attacking.
3) Archons will come way before EMP, unless you rushed straight to it, which means you die faster.
4) Agreed. But it still isn't your entire defense, just a part of it. You can't rely soley on two tanks and a turret to defend your workers.
|
| #75 CaRnEvIL[45733] |
| 89.p1.dialup.gru.net |
| Casper...my bad. I didn't fully read ur post. I thought u were talking about turrets, but you meant the tanks. Oops, stupid me. Good point. |
| #76 Iotola[45739] |
| 209-9-251-100.sdsl.cais.net |
Question:
In this report / guide, HeartCutter says we should all be doing wall ins now. On Temple I do, of course, because of the ramp. However, is a wall in worth it on a map with no ramp? Or should you just go tight base architecture? I've tried wall in's on non ramp maps and they work okay. As in they do slow the army down, but what do you all think?
Terrans Rule
Iotola |
| #77 CaRnEvIL[45743] |
| 89.p1.dialup.gru.net |
Hrrm...that all depends on the map lotola. Wall-ins are of major importance, so if at all possible, go for it. On the other hand, you don't want to over stretch yourself and leave your CC open. I would go with what your recon told you: if your opponent is going mass land, then focus on making a choke first. If a drop is coming, then focus on CC defense first.
I was just looking at HC's pics, and realized something: the tanks are not mutually supportive. Take 6:00 for example: if you were to drop 4 zeals/dts and attack depot 1 or 3, the tanks could not fire on them unless they were unsieged. And once the depot goes down, the defense is REALLY weak. I'm gonna try this on some peeps and see if it works. |
| #78 ....[45745] |
| PPPa51-ResaleNewYorkMetro9-4R7185.saturn.bbn.com |
| I would not mind seeing HC vs *@![MAX]!@*[. That would be entertaining. |
| #79 [MrFurious][45746] |
| pega.globetrotter.net |
Dear Carnie,
The point was that all these attacks worked equally against both bunkerless and Tank/bunker/turret. Whether they use broodling or not or if you have EMP or not was not the issue.
Basically what I am Ranting about is the fact that no one puts up valid arguments against this set-up. Of course it had its flaws but so does T/B/T. Like you said its not your whole defense, you can’t expect one tank a bunker and a turret to protect all your workers J
|
| #80 Tactican[45754] |
| cx924758-a.fed1.sdca.home.com |
| Okay I get the part about it being against a drop defense, but it won't help much. When you wall yourself in next to your mineral pile, you give me a great oppurtunity to expand all around the map, while you are frozen inside you little box. All I have to do is use some offensive cannons/bunkers/colonies and I've got you pinned. I own you, I'll play with you like a kitten does his food, and when I feel like it, I mow you down with a hufe fleet of carrers or what not. |
| #81 E5C4P3[S][45759] |
| webcache.coralsprings.ispchannel.com |
Carnevil,
Yes you are right it was E5C4P3, but you never posted you clan chan =(
To the rest of the peeps,
I find it funny nowadays to see all terrans do that ramp choke (everyone does it now on LT). As a protoss player I always do:
Pylon on 8 (duh)
Gate on 10
Pylon on 12 (yeah, I know not that original)
Forge on 13
Send probey to terrans ramp choke and create a pylon and 2 cannons to make terran ppl crap themselves =)
Also, send a couple of zeals to back up your cannons and the terrans will definately waste a lot more money trying to defeat this than 2 cannons a pylon and zeals.
I only use this in a Protoss vs. CHOSEN terran game b/c this strat is best used as early as possible in order to ensure cannons warping in without getting raped (*cough*Tanx*cough*)
And I'm sure some know this but consider it now to be documented. I haven't really seen this posted at any site at all so thats why i'm doing it now =) |
| #82 kornkornkornkid[45761] |
| 41.chicago-08-09rs.il.dial-access.att.net |
clan -usmc-
i used this and RAPE droppers. I have never had this fail because:
1) i have more turrets
toss cant drop 2 reavers into this......it just doesnt work |
| #83 [MrFurious][45766] |
| pc021669.gpa.etsmtl.ca |
Tactician,
If you think that is all a terran is doing then you are sorely mistaken...
This is like saying that if you put two sunkens and a lurker from drop defense I will own you by taking over the map!
I don`t know who you are man, but you need to be a bit more realistic about your assessments.
Cheers,
MF |
| #84 CaRnEvIL[45779] |
| 224.p1.dialup.gru.net |
Escap3...just /whois me on b-net as [w]hErO. My clan channel is invite-only for the clan. I'm usually in nohunters anyway. I had a toss player do that little offensive forge thing to me last night, and I raped it (and him) anyway. The terran just has to be up on his scouting and scout the toss. When you see a 1gate+forge early, it either means turtle, chobo, or o-cannon. Scouting lets you defeat this no problem. I have some MUCH better anti-terran builds that I would be more than happy to share with you on B-Net.
I'm with MF all the way: tactician, I'd hand you your ass in a nice pretty gift-wrapped box if you think you're gonna contain me with a bunker or cannons.
Oh, and sorry about the misunderstanding MF. I fully agree. However, 3 turrets+mines+2 tanks+1 bunker (optional) coupled with good base construction is pretty much undroppable until the latter stages of the game. But by then, you should be dropping the protoss player's base, so it's of little concern.
I did some testing, and sure enough, HC's depot defense is open to microed zeals/dtemps. This hurts, because it forces the terran to bring troops that he could otherwise be using to attack/expand back to help defend.
|
| #85 CaRnEvIL[45780] |
| 224.p1.dialup.gru.net |
| Yah, and if HC does play Max, I wanna obs :P |
| #86 [MrFurious][45781] |
| pc021669.gpa.etsmtl.ca |
Well if its open to zeals and DTs, the only benefit remains reaver scarabs... not sure its worth it...
|
| #87 CaRnEvIL[45788] |
| 224.p1.dialup.gru.net |
It can be. But it must be supported by mines+turrets.
|
| #88 Tactician[45791] |
| spider-wm037.proxy.aol.com |
| What are you on, two colonies and a lurker? Hell no that would never work. What I'm saying is that this defense has certain flaws, and one being the fact that I can just make a fortifcation right outside his depots and Halt anything he trys to send at me. In fact from that position I could just relentless assault him, with marines or zealots or hydras then while he's halted iun his unit production (what Dr. Demento:) Said ) I've got plenty of time to ammass a huge fleet of Large death bringers and mow his little depot defense down. Granted I have nothing against using depots as walls, but I have bunkers and bigger defenses behind them because only an idiot would attack the depots first. |
| #89 Sonneillon[45798] |
| prnask01d02070136.sk.sympatico.ca |
*sighs once more*
Tactician - I would laugh myself silly if you tried to amass a "huge fleet of death" in the midgame ...err...sigh, I'm laughing to hard to comment against your silly posts.
The Insane Goatee
Sonneillon
|
| #90 Dr. Demento:)[45833] |
| spider-wq061.proxy.aol.com |
Sonneillon, what is your definition of mid game? 10 min? 20min? 5? Because a huge fleet of death doesn't always mean capital ships. 60 marines can be considered a huge fleet of death. Hell 36 dragoons can be a huge fleet of death. By 10 min I could have 30 hydras outside your defense. Heck , I could have 4 DT ripping your peons to sheads before one turret is even up.
Tactician, is right though, just throwing everything into a defense that protects just the inside is idiocy. All I need to do is extend my defnse to right out side yours. Perfect place to stage an attack in my mind |
| #91 Dr. Demento:)[45835] |
| spider-wq061.proxy.aol.com |
Sonneillon, what is your definition of mid game? 10 min? 20min? 5? Because a huge fleet of death doesn't always mean capital ships. 60 marines can be considered a huge fleet of death. Hell 36 dragoons can be a huge fleet of death. By 10 min I could have 30 hydras outside your defense. Heck , I could have 4 DT ripping your peons to sheads before one turret is even up.
Tactician, is right though, just throwing everything into a defense that protects just the inside is idiocy. All I need to do is extend my defnse to right out side yours. Perfect place to stage an attack in my mind |
| #92 zero[45838] |
| PPPa90-ResaleNewYorkMetro7-3R7301.saturn.bbn.com |
| Hey Dr.Demento the terran is not throwing everthing into the defense. You are going to need those depots anyway right. And I don't think a person would stay idle long enough for you to get a "doom fleet army". And the dt most likely won't be getting in because of the wallin. |
| #93 Dr. Demento:)[45839] |
| spider-wq061.proxy.aol.com |
| Once again a Doom fleet army is not always just large and ominous capital ships. Besides I don't even need to bother attacking the wall in in the first place. I could get 2 Mutas or Scouts or Wraiths(better cause cloak) and take the peons out by merely flying beyond the stupid wallin. But that's a different issue. My main problem with the wallin is the tanks. I could wreak havok with the guy by merely sending zealots right up next to the depots and watch the tanks detroy them with their splash damage. I lose 3 zealots but the walls are down and I can go through. |
| #94 CaRnEvIL[45841] |
| 41.p1.dialup.gru.net |
| That's it. Dr. Demento and Tactitian, find me on Battle-Net so I clear this crap up once and for all. I'm in nohunters usually, and go by carnevil. Find me and let's play. |
| #95 Tactician[45843] |
| spider-wq061.proxy.aol.com |
| semeillin (what ever) the concept of a relentless assault seems to be lost upon you. I can throw enough cheese units at a SD and it will fall. Then that siege tank is wasted. and not only that I get to play a war of attrition with you. doesnt that sound like a great idea. Ohh yeah and I seem to remember a small spell in the defilers arsenal called Dark Swarm that negates all ranged attacks on its area. Yeah that makes the siege tank really useful or it can be ensnared and that it becomes inbearably slow. Or if you want to Protoss gee I think that a templar can psi storm it in its neat little box. Did I meantion that Zealots eat SDs like rice, same with zerglings and both can trap a tank inside these SD diamonds because they both can abuse the minimum range factor. ohh yeah and did I mention that I havent even played BW yet, which means that I can do even better if i tried. Points being, buildings are not expendable in mid-game so trying to use them with an seriousness is folly, AND the strength of the siege tank is not in the siege mode, its that it can go in and out of it, using a siege tank in a defence were it is the defence is asking for trouble its not that strong of a unit as is its a support weapon and anybody that disagrees needs to get out of the academy and on to the battle field. |
| #96 *@![MAX]!@*[45860] |
| brk-22-69.tm.net.my |
| still got ppl posting for this use less strat.......... |
| #97 [MrFurious][45864] |
| pega.globetrotter.net |
Tactician,
you are sooo way off the subject its not even funny. I am not going to post again on this because i feel i am wasting my time with you. Please re-read the strat again to get a handle on its true goals and how it is only A PART of the terran game not the only thing he does...
MF |
| #98 [XE]Sh|n|gAm|-X3n0n|C_P@L@d|N[45871] |
| proxyc3.cyberway.com.sg |
From my own experience, this strat WILL NOT WORK AT ALL!!
it will only be good for warding off early rushes, but terrans with their own tanks can get through!
And have you thought that the attacking units WILL attack the depots???
They can slowly inch their way forward by destroying the depots in front of the tanks with their own tanks and if you send units to kill their tanks, they have their own marines and firebats to counter that.
When the "wall" is breached by their tanks, 2 sieged tanks is no problem for enemy tanks and marines to take out! |
| #99 Casper...[45874] |
| odo.computerstudies.ca |
You fools.
If you expand and tech (i.e. go for a fancy drop) you'll get seiged in because you're numbers are low. This means if your storm/reaver raid fails, you WILL die. All this talk of fancy storm raiding or perfect reaver positioning makes me laugh; any protoss with an early game goal of storm raiding/reaver rushing should be shot. SC post 1.04 is a power game. Accept it people. Get more stuff then the next guy and win the big fight. Simple. |
| #100 Elendale[45876] |
| 205-213-43-229.sdlax.k12.wi.us |
To Carnevil for that post way up there (sheesh, haven't checked this enough lately...) I was joking about all that stuff bfore reaver. Even a newb at reaver drop should hit before your sci academy. And no, i'm not a BGH lamer. That map is fun, but nothing more. Anyone who plays it seriously should look at a real map *sigh* And I would be more than happy to lose to you ;) Actually, I can beat toss at my skill level around rather nicely (however, I'm prolly one of the worst nohunters guys...). Yeah... Time to read the rest of those comments...
-Elendale (is tired...) |
| #101 [vip]Kosher[45877] |
| edtntnt2-port-225.agt.net |
| i think it is good that heartcutter is trying to help people with there game, and for you that are saying he sucks and he has bad strats, well i dont see many of you posting strats and trying to help people!!! |
| #102 Elendale[45879] |
| 205-213-43-215.sdlax.k12.wi.us |
Ooh, should have read the next comment...
You wanna try that on me? Watch my stimmed marines smoke the shuttle when a zeal pops out. See the temp? Shoot the temp (admittedly, a *good* player will be able to drop the temp on the fly AND under the shuttle, so its harder than that). Its not that easy against a terran who knows its coming. Not only that, get a wraith or two to hit the shuttles. I do concede that if 2+ shuttles hit that particular defense, the terran has loads of trouble on his way.
-Elendale (You know its a good report when people start talking about TERRAN strategy!) |
| #103 CaRnEvIL[45880] |
| 21.p1.dialup.gru.net |
| Casper...u really don't understand do you? When a toss player is dropping, he WANTS the terran to try to press him. That means that his main is ripe for some raping. The toughest thing a toss dropper has to deal with is a terran who plays DEFENSE first, then attacks. U make storm raids sound really difficult, when they're not. You go ahead and play your "power" game. Playing a ground war with a good terran is really, really stupid. Shuttles give you the one thing terrans don't have: mobility=P |
| #104 CraZy[45920] |
| px1he.ss.wave.shaw.ca |
| wooo Acty has a gosu TvP =o I still won tho and I chobo he musta messed up :D |
| #105 Random4eveR[45971] |
| jrc-192-10.tm.net.my |
| U all wanna play with me using this strat??Then it might be a losson for u all not to use terran 4eveR again!! |
| #106 [9]NTT[45992] |
| CP859124224-a.dbsch1.nb.nl.home.com |
Haha! You fat nerds have no clue how to play Terran, this turtle crap makes me laugh. He can't even get his fucking tanks out. Even though he made this setup using the campaign editor, i am 100% sure he can't get the tanks IN nore out. It's a load of crap, to all the Terran wannabe's out there (including Heartcutter) don't use this bullshit if you have any hopes of ever winning a game. And let me end my post by saying that the overall quality on this site is extremely low, i doubt i'll be visiting this site ever again so if you wish to flame me do so.
Bye scrubs. |
| #107 Darth Sidious[46081] |
| ap01-d02-175.dial.freesurf.nl |
it's ok NTT, we already know your arrogant asshole.
|
| #108 §tarfreak[46104] |
| prxy6.nwbl.wi.voyager.net |
| damn alot of comments from the last time i checked(29) anyways if a terran somehow stops a toss drop a good follow up is definetly a vulture drop. u should already have facs making tanks and vultures. i like to use two facs and starport to tank/cliff or vulture drop.many might disagree and say three facs is better.oh well. anyways most likely he will have his gates on rally points by ur choke with goons, and maybe he might have a temp by his nexus. drop vultures in minerals. if he storms, his probes are gone. if he doesn't, his probes are gone=Þ. after u drop the vultures lay mines. when his zeals or goons come to help, he'll run into the mines and kill even more probes and the zealsgoons. works even better with emp! |
| #109 joeblow[46134] |
| s132n068.csun.edu |
this is a completely pointless and idiotic strat...
cant believe u post it u moron.. |
| #110 Dausuul[46387] |
| pottery2-wan1-157.dartmouth.edu |
Oh, for Christ's sake... some people are so dumb. Let me explain a few things about this strat.
#1. It is not meant to be a full-scale base defense, nor is it meant to stop everything in the world. It's just an efficient and powerful component of a solid base defense.
#2. This setup costs a grand total of 400 minerals and 200 gas. That's it. The depots cost effectively nothing because you have to build them anyway. A single tank, bunker with marines, and turret cost 550 minerals and 100 gas, and are much easier to kill.
#3. Having two tanks "stuck" is not going to cripple any competent player. Ever heard of MAKING MORE TANKS? Later on, if you find you really, desperately need those two miserable tanks, you can always build a dropship and ferry them out.
#4. This is intended primarily as an anti-Protoss strat, so all you people talking about hydras and lurkers and broodlings can bugger off. Terran vs. Zerg is generally a matter of zillions of marines, medics, a tank or two, and science vessels. (If the Zerg is smart and goes for guardians, you may need a few wraiths as well.) When you have that many marines, you might as well spend the extra cash to build a bunker or two. The advantage to the bunkerless CC defense is that it lets you do without marines and concentrate on pumping heavy metal.
#5. A lot of the comments flaming this strat seem to operate on the assumption that the guy using it is going to build two tanks, a turret, and a bunch of depots and then just sit there waiting to die. Sure you can chew through it, but while you're busy doing that, the Terran will be shoving a whole bunch of vultures and tanks up your ass, or something similarly painful.
I'm going to have to practice this and see how good I can get with it. Once again, many thanks to Heartcutter. Without you, my Terran game would suck even worse than it already does.
Of course, by this time next year we'll all be playing Warcraft III and all these debates will be moot...
--Dausuul |
| #111 Nice^0ne[46603] |
| sac-ca44-08.ix.netcom.com |
going back to comment #70, by *@![MAX]!@*[
I laugh in your face. Zerg air vs. Terran?
What a waste! Zerg got no mobile detection . . . except those fat bloated bags of slop called overlords. Use your wraiths to pop those suckers first, cloak, then kill. Queens with ensnare? Target them and kill. Dance those wraiths. Spread them out. It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you do something, becasue Zerg can't see them. Not to mention wraiths are 2x cheaper and faster than Guardians or Devourers. Face it, wraiths own Zerg air.
Oh, and please, for your own sake, don't mention scourge. they can't hit what they can't see. And Hydras? Tanks and rines, baby.
Later. |
| #112 [FLS]Prozerran - Rater[46824] |
| bess-proxy.northshore.k12.ny.us |
| hehe |
| #113 Dausuul[47242] |
| kiewit-pub-bp-54.dartmouth.edu |
I must point out that Zerg have more than just overlords for mobile detection. They have queens and defilers. Ensnare will show up your cloaked wraiths, as well as slowing them down. Plague will both show them up and eat up that tinfoil they call "armour." While both effects (as well as devourer spores) can be minimized by spreading out the wraiths, it's hard to keep a spread-out formation like that in a serious dogfight. A smart Zerg will dart away with the muties and then ensnare your wraiths as they bunch up in pursuit.
Add to this is the fact that a Zerg facing cloaked wraiths who brings just one overlord is stupid. By the time the enemy has a substantial wraith fleet, the Zerg should have overlords by the dozens (well, maybe not quite that many, but you get the point). If I bring, say, four overlords with my mutalisk squad, you can go right ahead and shoot them down. I'll make more. In the time it takes you to kill four overlords, I can kill a whole lot more than four hundred minerals' worth of wraiths.
I'm not saying that a Terran can't hose down Zerg air. They can--Terrans have far and away the best air force in the late game. Valkyries and battlecruisers can shoot down anything that flies. And mutalisks suck against Terran ground troops, thanks to those pesky stimmed marines. But early on in the game, two or three guardians, with muties and overlords to protect them from wraiths, can wreak some serious havoc on a Terran.
None of this, of course, has anything to do with Heartcutter's depot positioning guide, but I figured I might as well comment on it anyway... |
| #114 Sonneillon[47981] |
| tsdlsk01d01010123.sk.sympatico.ca |
| P.S. Folks, ensnare does not affect the firing rate of tanks, archons, goliaths, and reavers. Just their movement rate. |
| #115 =CorpsE=[49520] |
| craw-cas1-cs-46.dial.bright.net |
| Whats happened to you HC?We all miss your strats and Battle Reports. |
| #116 BUU[61797] |
| spider-wj074.proxy.aol.com |
| I'd like to point something out, about that "terran air owns zerg" bull shit. Zerg air owns. Period. I dont care what you say, muts plus devs rape toss or terran air. And if you throw in queens or plague, they rape even harder. "Oh yeah, well my 12 valks backed up by bcs will rape your muts and stuff!" Ha Ha. Valks look really silly when they fire about once every minute (or less) and that nice fat armor of theirs looks even sillier when they take about 17 dmg a hit from ONE mut.. ever seen 12 muts do something like 350+dmg in one hit against carriers? cause its really wrong. And im not going to get into scourges and defilers or tanks and rines or goliaths or wtf. For every unit there is an equal and opposite counter. thank you. dont bother flaming me. its pointless. |
| #117 BUU[61799] |
| spider-wj074.proxy.aol.com |
| P.S. i forgot to talk about the original point of this debate and all. Some of these ppls arguements like *ahem* TACTICIAN, not to mention any names... its like me saying (as a toss) well i like to throw down 2 zlots and a couple of cannons around my nexus for early defence. and then tactician replying. "that strat sucks. i could dis web your cannons. and then i could bring in 3 arbiters and stasis your zlots, then i could have them recall my 12 carriers, 8 temps, and 6 reavers, and i would own you! so your strat sucks!" i mean ITS A SHORT LITTLE TACTIC YOU MAY USE. ITS NOT A STRAT ITS A TACTIC MY GOD get a grip.. |
| #118 Dausuul[67912] |
| gelt.tcom.purdue.edu |
| I second BUU's comment. We haven't seen anything from Heartcutter in a long time... and I always had so much fun reading his reports! |
| #119 Heartcutter[76708] |
| adsl-63-196-6-23.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net |
I WILL be back.
-HC |
| #120 CKane[77374] |
| c209662-a.haywd2.sfba.home.com |
| Last comment! |
| #121 mattkid[77394] |
| 00-60-97-d5-1d-d0.bconnected.net |
| last comment |
| #122 Onaka[79010] |
| port79.cvx1-sto.ppp.netlink.se |
FOR EVERYONE THAT DOUBTS THIS WILL WORK:
A good terran player SHALL scout his/her oponent to see what strategy he/her is planning to make. You can do this in many ways like hiding an SCV within his base, flying with an engineeringbay, getting an early scan or however you wish to do... and if you see for example an early reaverdrop - go for this build. If you see lots of dragoons just use that tank offensive ! - Simple ass that ! |
| #123 hearth_cutter2[92405] |
| ncache04.terra.cl |
this is a nice strat i am a terran is practice I LOVE TERRANS BUT I HATE PROTOSS WHAY BLIZZARD MAKE THIS RACE SOOOO POWERFULL???¡¡¡¡¡ THE TOSS ABUSE OF THE STORM AND CREATE TOOONS OF GOOONS IHATE DAMN GOONS ICANT DO ENITHING AGAINST HIM PLS HELP ME TO WIN A FIGHT AGAINST A GOON CONTAIMENT PLS¡¡¡HERTACUTTER YOUR terrans fan...
hearth_cutter2.(i have this nick by the best terran ,aster i ever seen) |
| #124 Hathaway[94048] |
| ppp-207-104-158-205.wnck11.pacbell.net |
| BUU - Mass SV > Mass zerg *anything* :) |
| #125 TDM[95677] |
| ci991207-b.edgewd1.ky.home.com |
| Comment after #126. I mean, thats worth something right? Right...? Dang. |
| #126 =CorpsE=[96483] |
| dhcp024-166-233-109.columbus.rr.com |
| Last. |
| #127 Darth Sidious[96610] |
| 145.85.143.151 |
| NOT ! |
| #128 last[102518] |
| proxy1-gw.gcc.edu |
| .t. |
| #129 Hrm[106076] |
| bth250eby58vj.bc.hsia.telus.net |
Instead of using 300 minerals and 4 supply (4 Marines and bunker) you use 300 minerals, 200 gas, and 4 supply (2 Tanks).
I'd rather have an SCV close to (maybe in) my SCV line, thx. |
| #130 l)arkSide[106214] |
| spider-syd-aa031.proxy.aol.com |
To those ppl doubting this defence's effectiveness:
I recently played a TvP where i used this defence. My opponent tried an elevator drop on me. He got his army of goons and lotz into my base unnoticed and then charged. His lotz went straight for the tank in the defence. 6 or so lotz stood around like my toothbrush in my bathroom awaiting the day where they would be able to attack the tank.
I casually brought along some backup and that attack was history.
Without the defence i would have lost alot of my SCV and more dmg would have been inflicted.
That defence is part of my build nowdays. It also helps me remember an ebay and academy so i dont fall behind in tech. |
| #131 CKane[114115] |
| 12-233-180-134.client.attbi.com |
| STOP COMMENTING SO I CAN GET LAST |
| #132 RockForce[118988] |
| spider-wp051.proxy.aol.com |
| No, me last. =P |
| #133 blahblah[131316] |
| 145.85.158.208 |
| there will be no last |
| #134 Affro[133997] |
| h24-67-161-244.ok.shawcable.net |
| Sry Boyz |
| #135 jimmy[134448] |
| cvpp-p-144-138-156-42.prem.tmns.net.au |
HC must be back
-NJ
Ps. LAst 1/8/02 |
| #136 Convider[141354] |
| Toronto-HSE-ppp3660426.sympatico.ca |
lastttttttttttttt
21/5/03 |
| #137 Darth Sidious[142346] |
| 145.85.158.253 |
Later
10/6/03 |
| #138 Capt_Reinhardt[143106] |
| u140n76.eastlink.ca |
Man, I didn't even notice it's been 2 - 3 years since HeartCutter's written a report... Good God! Come back to us!
Laterer! |
| #139 Heartcutter[146423] |
| bus209b23.sfsu.edu |
Just give me a little more time. I graduate in December (MBA). After that it's job search time, and I'll have a good spare afternoon or two to write up a report.
-HC |
| #140 OnceAndFutureKing[149630] |
| 167.127.163.203 |
It has been years since Commander HeartCutter disappeared to unknown frontiers. The Terran machine presses onward, but new officers need to be shown how to execute Deep6 properly. And, occasionally, the cadre wonder when they will drink malt liquor with the Commander again. Rook and associates await the return of the king . . .
UED Deep Space Transmission 28MAY04 |
#141  [152480] |
| wc01.wlfdle.rnc.net.cable.rogers.com |
| man, such ownage :O |
| #142 [155888] |
| pem-tcs2-port40.vianet.ca |
| This guy on battle net hacked my acount can u block him plz! |
| #143 dntplaylt[161934] |
| cpe-70-112-4-182.austin.res.rr.com |
| Well, Heartcutter is back, but back in WC3. :-( Come Heart! Come to the Terran that you perfected! I use this defense in multiplayer games, because of toss being so common there. Oh, and last I suppose :-/ 10-20-05 |
| #144 sTe)titan(sTe[164265] |
| flex-04.mcmsys.com |
| Last comment ftw |
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