"FLS, I will hunt you down to the ends of the earth. There is no place small, dark, and damp enough to hide your wretched carcass. And when I find you, your grandson will rather have his private parts infested with the fleas of a thousand camels than hear of your horrible fate."
-Mark4
|
| #1 blabla[66397] | | cache-engine.estpak.ee | | lol im not supposed to do this.. but just this time.. ill be lame and get the first comment.. or second.. or third | | #2 Rumpelstiltskin[66398] | | cvx-got-1-92.ppp.netlink.se | Hmm... I seem to remember a time when you could "pre-date" comments to get in first... is that still possible!? Just wondering... Interesting title for a BR tho, gotta get back into writing one of these days...
/Rump | | #3 HardStomper[66402] | | cvx-got-1-92.ppp.netlink.se | | Hey - how did you guys comment so fast!? Anyway, just thought I'd mention that I was quick to tell everyone in the game why I was stomping them. Told'em time and again: what do we learn from this? Comp-stomping sucks. In comp-stomping, everybody loses. Even gave some pointers to the only ones who seemed to know the first thing about playing the game. So it's not like I was completely silent in there. They knew why it was happening. And maybe they'll think twice before letting it happen again. By learning the game, or avoiding comp-stomps. Either way, my mission is fulfilled. Keep watching this space for further chapters... unless everyone is all, like, "oooh, how could you, ooohhh, not pc at all..." | | #4 WarLeaderJustin[66404] | | spider-tq044.proxy.aol.com | Uh, #1. We don't comp stomp around here. You're preaching to the converted.
And,#2, Battle Report better games. Your writing kept me hooked, but why a comp stomp game? Those are <b>lame</b>. Nice effort, nonetheless.
Unfortunately, I'd rate it a ~40%.
-WLJ | | #5 LuckyNewbie:P[66405] | | user-33qto8v.dialup.mindspring.com | Well written, but no pix. Need pix. I like pix to gawk at =) MOOOOOOOOOOORE!!! hehe. Interesting to say the least. I grew up on bgh comp stomps for my first 2 years of starcraft, and i ran into a fair share of backstabbers. Sorry to say, it didn't keep me away from playing more and more. Reason i always played em was because i was afraid to play humans for some odd reason. Jeditalion finally got me to see the light =)
Anyways, dont waste ur time backstabbing newbies, just play the game and have fun. I'd rather have those fags in their comp stomps safe and away from ~nohunters then to have em writing in caps of how much they own everyone in the channel =/
Just let them form clans, then it gets really funny =)
~ LuckyNewbie:P | | #6 Shepherd[66407] | | res104a-013.rh.rit.edu | Who is Aquabat! ??
Oh! I was reading the list of ppl in nohunters. . . | | #7 WarLeaderJustin[66408] | | spider-tq044.proxy.aol.com | ROFL, the first time I saw the author, I thought it said, "FaceStomper."
-WLJ | | #8 CrAzY~gOpHeR[66409] | | dial247.b1.tnt1.cle.oh.freei.net | | gj hardstomper i hope you have fun backstabbing newbies even though thats gayer then hell > funner then hell too =) | | #9 WarLeaderJustin Sucks[66410] | | bc-kam-a53-01-21.look.ca | YOU SUCK NEWBIE.
| #10  [66411] | | as530024.infocom.com | Well written and mildly humorous. Good enough for a 6 in my book.
As for backstabbing itself. Its wrong and its unsportsmanlike, but its funny as hell.
People have a right to play Starcraft in anyway that they choose. If they get off on beating down a comp 20 times a day, then that's their right. But still, when you can get quotes like, "<i>You goddam cocksucker, your mom sucks elephant balls</i>" its worth the slight twinge of conscience.
Cheers,
Dref | | #11 Weilin[66425] | | spider-tf082.proxy.aol.com | FIRST TIME TO BR
NICE THOUHGH
I LOVE TO BS
BS=FUN
Y AM I TYPING IN CAPS?
i dunno | | #12 Starookie[66426] | | edtn009848.hs.telusplanet.net | gj stomper. Teach those newbies comp stompers!!
Peaces,
Starookie
| | #13 archon6[66427] | | spider-tp063.proxy.aol.com | | i like ur writing it is funny and has wit. write more. lucky ur "allies" or a bunch of grade-A 100% mofos | | #14 leipus[66429] | | proxy.gelrevision.nl | | lol i once kicked six :) | | #15 leipus[66430] | | proxy.gelrevision.nl | | lol i once kicked six :) | | #16 Hater[66439] | | 147.97.14.110 | | Hater hates comp stomping. That was so freakin funny. I give it a 10. WarLeaderJustin is gay anyway. If you manage to backstab some more comp stompers please post. | #17  [66440] | | 1Cust169.tnt14.tco2.da.uu.net | People have the right to play SC however they choose, and if you get your jollies killing comp stompers, that's a choice too =].
Well written, and I admit that even though it's been a long time, I've done it myself. | | #18 (DL)Spam[66444] | | hst000003162um.kincannon.olemiss.edu | But check out Icantlose.com
Those guys backstab with style | | #19 WarLeaderJustin[66446] | | spider-wc033.proxy.aol.com | OMFG, the people who flamed me for my above comment need to get a fucking life. I in no way flamed the author, I actually thought it was pretty well-written myself. However, I did think that it kept drilling a message that I've already learnt.
I fully believe that the author is capable of garnering a very high gold with his writing abilities. I just didn't think this was the best game to use them one. So fuck off, for those people who follow me around, critique everything I say, analyze it, then post their flame about me.
-WLJ | | #20 POIPOIPOI[66451] | | a24b31n69client47.hawaii.rr.com | | FUCK YOU WLJ NO ONE LIKES YOU | | #21 [LoR]-Punisher[66467] | | ktce1.156ce.singa.pore.net | Nice writing.I suggest you br better games than this type.
#1:I doubt anyone in NH backstabs.
#2:Noone in NH comp stomps. | | #22 Ydraliskos[66472] | | athe530-p106.otenet.gr | | Lol WarLeaderJustin, there are a lot of ppl here that want to see you dead and buried methinks =). Ignore 'em. | | #23 Ydraliskos[66473] | | athe530-p106.otenet.gr | | Lol WarLeaderJustin, there are a lot of ppl here that want to see you dead and buried methinks =). Ignore 'em. | | #24 mlylecarlin[66480] | | cache2.gw.utexas.edu | Nothing funnier in the world of starcraft than a whimpering compstomp newbie fighting for his life. I had one game in which i spoke only French to my opponents, and toyed with them by getting offended at their "attacks" (ie unit movements which I seiged and destroyed), de-allying, and "misunderstanding" their attempts at peace. The best line I EVER heard in a starcraft game:
"Guy123: PLZ let's ally all nations be friends like three kings plz!"
Another fun thing to do is find a game with a toss player, go toss yourself, and psi-storm the minerals of another player. If you claim innocence fast enough they are usually too stupid to check WHO has the Archives. Seriously.
| | #25 shockwave[66481] | | exchange1.sensable.com | I think back stabbers are the lowest form of life. People have the right to enjoy the game in whatever they want as long as it doesn't interfere with other people; this is common human decency. If someone wants to play 7on1 no-rush-for-3-hours BGH comp bash, then what right do you have to ruin their fun? This is no better than those high school bullies that pick on the weaker kids for how they dress. This is often the defense used for homosexual couples these days -- they don't hurt you, so what right do you have to terrorize them?
Oh well, most of you will call me anal or an idiot. But I ask again what those 7on1 comp stomp people are doing that is so wrong and hurtful to you that you have to go and ruin their game? It's not like records mean anything in the game, or that you're even likely to play with/against those people in a normal game, or that their game being there somehow detracts from you being able to find your own.
Unlike the poster, I see nothing wrong with 7on1 comp bashes, or playing BGH or greed or bunker command or 2-hour-no-rush or whatever type of Starcraft as long as it doesn't hurt other people. Oh well, I don't expect to debate this much, though; we've been through this on the b.net forum and people who defend backstabbing are just consistently those who have no kindness towards fellow man. It's just scary to me that these people are growing up to be our future leaders.
[/flame] :-) | | #26 likmepoo[66482] | | h-209-91-116-20.gen.cadvision.com | Pics add to presentation but in your case, not needed to carry interest. Your writing style is very good.
Re: backstabbing, I support it 100% in games over 4v1c. I'm inspired to prawl again for the same reasons as u.
I also understand the fear of playing humans. I sometimes feel anxiety playing 1v1, so I opt out for 2v2 or 3v3 ppl. Probably because there is less Macro to worry about, and less agressive players like me don't have to spend so much energy on map control but rather percision attacks to key areas. Too much Macro makes me feel like I'm playing SimCity rather than chess. So my comfort zone is 2v2, therefore I must understand the preference of the less agressive than me to choose comp stomp, just as I must accept good 1v1 players to dabble in 2v2's and crush me. I like the unpredictability of the allie match-ups. | | #27 [66483] | | WCS3.NORFOLK.NIPR.MIL | In a normal game, people have a chance of losing. Yet no one is ridiculed or looked down on for ruining the other guys amusement when he plays 1v1 and tries to win.
The 1v1v6 backstabber shouldn't really have a chance of winning....if he does... =p | | #28 British[FTL][66484] | | 204.245.4.140 | It might be mean, but... Man, it sure is funny!!
| | #29 shockwave[66489] | | exchange1.sensable.com | Mark -- when you play in a normal game, though, you enter a contract where it's acceptable and understood that you might get a loss. It's like when you enter a lottery, you accept that you may end up losing your money. But let's say that you send in for a rebate that you're supposed to get, but the company says "Hahah, no money for you, you lose, just like the guys who play the lottery." Well, you entered into the rebate with the contract that they'd give you your money back, so the risk of them keeping it shouldn't be there and thus violates your rights.
With 6on1 comp stomp games, sure there is a risk of losing. But people enter into that contract with the assumption that you should only lose if the comp beats you (or maybe a player accidentily kills you, I dunno :-b ). So to go into that then have someone backstab you is a violation of contract and is frowned upon.
Similarly, if you're in a football game with two teams, yeah you may lose and get humiliated from the other team; but if one of your own players backstabs the team, then I think people would justifiably consider that to be of very poor character.
And even in 1on6 comp stomps, it's not hard for the backstabber to win. If the other players aren't experienced and aren't prepared to be backstabbed and you have shared vision, then you should at least be able to take out a couple of them right out. | | #30 blah[66494] | | dhcp-client-206.233.215.80.hearme.com | <rant> (the trendy thing to do)
Mark4 - I REALLY hope that wasn't an attempt to justify backstabbing because that argument is just so wrong. (talking about post #27). Do you know what backstabbing IS?
To attack (someone) unfairly, especially in an underhanded, deceitful manner. I'll leave it at that.
If you think backstabbing is funny then I have a fantastic idea. Do it in real life sports. Sports are just a game right? Right?
There's nothing better than the feeling of making my team lose because man, they were playing someone SO below their skill level. They DESERVED to have me there to ruin their game! Muah ha ha ha ha! I mean this IS the place apparently to announce how you make your sports team lose. So many people here think having no sportsmanship is funny.
Sigh. If you do it to win, then yep, nothing can beat backstabbing since if you notice that you can't take out your team mates then you can just ally with them and win! if you know that you can from watching them play then you can backstab!
if you do it to watch people get angry, then you're f**ked up. Very f**ked up. Do I really need to explain why?
If you do it to "punish" people for playing the game wrong then YOU'RE the one taking the game WAY too seriously. Tell your RL friends that you're XXXXX, protector of Starcraft and see how cool they think you are.
</rant>
Note: I have nothing against backstabbing people because they REALLY piss you off. I just have something against people who backstab because they enjoy making others angry, people who backstab because they want to win, and people that backstab to punish people who don't play the game like they do. | | #31 likmepoo[66500] | | h-209-91-116-20.gen.cadvision.com | Stop. Relax. Breath... This is constructive not antagonistic. We are all fellow SC's with differing opinions.
History shows (WW1, WW2) that there is more to winning wars than being a good general. Diplomacy and strategic alliances were used to get your own country ahead. We saw clear examples of backstabbing from each and every country. You can trust your best friend to spend evenings with your spouse, and you can trust your family to never do you wrong… I think it is a good lesson to learn never to trust allies 100%, because in a game you simply get a loss, but in real life the lessons might be harder. Please be a little more understanding to opinions that are opposite to yours. I thank both sides because the opinions made me think. Both sides are making a completely different point, and choose to focus on strong points (ie honour and team strength vs being ready for anything and learning to factor in unpredictability & flexibility). I might disagree or simply choose to focus on a different aspects, but BOTH sides HAVE A POINT!
For those who want to equate SC with sports, don't forget that they change allies on a regular basis… ever heard of being traded? A marriage is an alliance… need I say more? What happens if we all believe this world is a big happy family and US and Canada go to war over fresh water or oil in Alberta? Have fun, trust those you CHOOSE to depend on… but never get too complacent. There is an optimal balance for each situation. A foot soldier's life depends on his comrades and therefore needs to have utmost confidence in his fellow men. A businessman on the other hand looks out for his business and might let go of a long standing co-worker simply because he is not pulling his weight. He is not "Stuck" with who is on his side. So just relax people and try to learn from the ideas you hear and pull out your own lessons, rather than shutting down the ideas that focus on something not favorable to you. This is a psychological exercise designed to make you more flexible and less naïve.
| | #32 shockwave[66506] | | exchange1.sensable.com | likemepoo:
Sure alliances change in football games, but you never see someone in any sports game suddenly turning on their team in the middle of a game and backstabbing them to allow the other team to win, do you?
And yes, all this philosophical talk about counting on allies and fellow man or what not is applicable to a certain sense, but not in this case. You don't count completely on allies because they might backstab you. That doesn't make backstabbing right. When you have a roommate in college, you may lock away some of your drawers from him because you don't trust him completely. But his stealing stuff from you is still WRONG.
You explained why backstabbing might happen and you can't trust everyone unconditionally. I agree, it does happen, nobody contends that. But it is still WRONG.
Similarly, in Starcraft, sure you can backstab, there is nothing on the manual or on the rulebook or in Blizz's b.net policy that says you cannot. And other allies should be aware of the possibility. But it is still wrong. So is turning against your team in football; there is no rule that you have to try your best and help your teammates, but it's universally considered wrong to backstab in team sports.
In Starcraft, I think it's fair to say that if you're decent, you'll play honorably. That means you don't join 30-minute-no-rush-games and 6-pool them. It means you don't join FFAs and gang up on people. "Everything is perimssible, but not everything is beneficial." Similarly, just because you can backstab someone in the game doesn't mean it's a decent and humane thing to do. Yep, I'm pretty strongly opinionated about this, as you can tell; but I think it's a fundamental issue of morality and common human decency. | | #33 blah[66514] | | dhcp-client-206.233.215.80.hearme.com | Look at this line again: "Starcraft is a psychological exercise designed to make you more flexible and less naive?" Is it really?
<I>Come buy Blizzard Entertainment's Starcraft. A 2D Sci Fi psychological exercise. It's not designed to entertain though it might very well do so. What it really is IS an exercise to make you more flexible and less naive! Buy it now to teach your children how to toughen their skin against people who cheat, people who sabatoge and people who betray each other! Do you really want naive, inflexible children? Buy Starcraft today for a healthy new generation!</I>
I mean is that REALLY what you think starcraft is? I personally see starcraft as a sport. (this is debatable on its own and my argument is really pretty much centered on this belief). That's why I feel that starcraft players should have sportsmanship. Backstabbing is definitely unsporting.
BTW - I have heard of being traded. Your point? Your comparing apples and oranges here. You sound like Adolf Hitler! Now if you would stop attacking the strawman you might realize that in the 92 edition of the Study on Starcraft that it was proven that it is different. (: Heh, just remembering an email I read a while back.
Seriously though, it IS completely different. Ok so you play a 2vs2. you and bob vs jim and john. You guys win and then you say "ok now me and jim vs bob and john". And then you play another match. This time bob and john win. How is that back stabbing again? Did bob backstab you?
BTW - I hope you're not taking offense to my arguing. That's all it is.
| | #34 Hater[66516] | | 147.97.14.122 | There are no gurantees. I agree with Mark. A backstabber shouldn't win a 6v1v1. If they do... then they helped out everybody's game that got beat themselves due to letting them know they suck. I think the best way to learn something is by imitation. I usually imitate the guys who beat me at least I started out that way. It is part of the learning process. If you can't learn then stick to comp stomping and wait to get backstabbed. Besides, I can't stand people bragging about whipping the comp.
I think when I was learning that backstabbers made the game more fun. I really got a kick out of it, but I am a person who likes surprises.
Also, if you win all the time that isn't healthy. 7v1 is a win. Backstabbers are just a way to balance people mentally. lol I know, I know bs.
Shockwave, people like you scare me when they start comparing the game to real life. You are the type that might loose a comp stomp and then go on a real life shooting rampage. EVERYBODY it is a game. A game has winners and losers.
| | #35 Hater[66517] | | 147.97.14.122 | | Just like how I am going to laugh at all this flamage from my typos. | | #36 [66523] | | as530071.infocom.com | Shock, I mostly agree with what you're saying... one small nitpick though...
"<i>Sure alliances change in football games, but you never see someone in any sports game suddenly turning on their team in the middle of a game and backstabbing them to allow the other team to win, do you?</i>"
When a person backstabs, they do it so that they're the only winner, they don't do it so the comp wins. The football example is not really applicable, because the player would have to somehow find a way to make himself the sole winner while everyone else loses... :)
Like Mark said, even if you take the other 6 players by surprise, SC economics says that you should not be able to win unless your skill is much higher then those of the backstabees... :)
Cheers,
Dref | | #37 HardStomper[66527] | | cvx-got-1-278.ppp.netlink.se | Schockwave -- I hear you loud and clear. On a generalistic level, your arguments are above reproach (as so many things are, on that level...)
I won't enter into debate with you; much because it'd hurt my head, trying to stand on both sides of the issue at once. I will, however clarify something:
Yes, I've backstabbed on comp-stomps and enjoyed it. But this does not mean that I am an overall bad person. I am (and this is actually true) a card-carrying and paying member of Amnesty, Greenpeace and the Nordic Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. I also support a small African family and help them put their youngest daughter through school.
Nothing of this, of course, has anything to do with Starcraft. I just wanted to illustrate an important point: there are no easy answers.
Glad to see that the post sported some feelings, though. That was all I ever hoped for.
| | #38 tontochico[66586] | | a24b25n251client159.hawaii.rr.com | | wow, some people take this game way too seriously. you cant compare a computer game to anything like football games. ya, you could backstab your team, but where would that leave you? beat up, without a team, and the victim of constant ridicule. on the other hand, people like shockwave thinks that "killing people" on starcraft, which has no effect on them in life, is comparable to homosexuals, whatever else he was talking about, something something, whatever. | | #39 Hiding[66590] | | 192.61.117.165 | I read some of the posts but some of them are just to damn long to read.
People have voiced that if they want to play a 7v1 comp stomp game then you shouldn't ruin there fun. What if your fun is backstabbing people and giving people loses when they though that they were going to get an easy win.
I like backstabbing, it's fun. Thats what i enjoy, to hear my teammates scream for mercy as i tear them down. Who has the right to take away my fun? | | #40 shockwave[66620] | | exchange1.sensable.com | Uhh guys, some of you mentioned that Starcraft isn't comparable to real life and that I take my analogies so far.
Yes, it's true that Starcraft is "just a game", but I think the same attitudes or ethics you apply to Starcraft are the ones you'll apply in real life. If I'm a real big sore loser in Starcraft and cuss out people whenever I lose, then I'm probably also a sore loser in life and am immature whenever I lose at something. Similarly, if you see nothing ETHICALLY wrong with backstabbing someone in Starcraft, then I think there's something wrong with your general approach or ethics to life.
Yes it is JUST A GAME. But the same principles you apply to the game are the ones that you use for the rest of your decisions. Let me use a practical example -- if you cheat on homework in school, you might get expelled. Naive people may complain, "But it's just SCHOOL, it's not real life." The point is that cheating in school reveals something about your ethics in real life.
BTW: Yeah some people life alteregos in games where they behave completely different from they do in real life. But there's nothing that indicates that in the battle report; the author is saying that people who play these types of games are the lowest of scum and deserve to have their fun ruined. I believe that is a wrong attitude. Someone tell me WHY that is a justifiable attitude? | | #41 shockwave[66637] | | exchange1.sensable.com | Hiding:
<I>I like backstabbing, it's fun. Thats what i enjoy, to hear my teammates scream for mercy as i tear them down. Who has the right to take away my fun? </I>
What if my fun is to break into people's homes and watch them scream as I stab their children to death?
I think generally in America, it's recognized that you have a right to enjoy your own fun as long <b>as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples' basic rights</b>.
Sure, again, Starcraft is JUST A GAME, I find it hilarious that one person asserted I'm the kind of person who would go out on a shooting rampage if I lost. It's just a game, but we're trying to apply basic principles in terms of what is right and wrong. Your behavior in Starcraft just happens to be another example of where you can apply ethics.
The central issue is -- Is it RIGHT or JUSTIFIED to backstab someone else in a game? I believe that question is answered by considering -- is it JUSTIFIED to be able to infringe on someone else's rights for the sake of you pursuing your own fun? You'll see that there is really NO situation elsewhere in this world where that would be considered right. Whether you play Starcraft or football or a card game or whether you're making real life decisions, it's universally considered to be bad human behavior to violate someone else's rights just to pursue your own happiness. And if you think Starcraft is an exception because it's "just a game", remember that you'll get expelled from school if you cheat even though it's "just school" and not real life. Nobody has ever been justified in saying, "I cheat in school, but that doesn't mean I'll cheat in real life." | | #42 likmepoo[66645] | | h-209-91-116-20.gen.cadvision.com | blah:
If you are going to quote me (#33) from my post (#31) then at least use my words. I said "This is a psychological excersise..." talking about the debate (if you even understood that paragraph), NOT "StarCraft is a psychological excersise...". Get your facts straight.
shockwave:
1) "Backstabbing" is like going against your word. Yea it's not ethical, but in SC it's allowed and you enter your games knowing it's a possibility. Not saying it's right or wrong... just that it's allowed and each person has a choice to do so whether we like it or not. Discussion done.
2) Turning on your allies in a SC game is allowd by Blizzard, cheating is not allowed by teachers (that's apples and oranges).
3) If you relate using a "hacking" to cheating in shcool I will agree with you. B.net and teachers don't support it. Backstabbing is an option you are aware of and face right from the word "go". You can choose not to protect yourself from a rush, and power. You can choose not to protect yourself from air as you go mass ground. You can also choose not to be weary of your ally comming into your mineral line with a strong force. Your choice.
"Hacking" is an unfair advantage and unless you use one, you don't have a "choice" to be on an equal playing field.
Let's not get carried away and talk about strong opinions leading to psychological dysfunctions like mass shootings. Come on now. They are all valid opinions and shockwave, I commend you on your passion towards your point. Open your mind a little and see that there might be something to other peoples opinions.
In some countries it would be considered flattery that I went out of my way to show you a window to my thoughts. Choose to do with that as you may. I'm done posting on this topic.
"The wise stay wise because they don't teach the fools". | | #43 blah[66663] | | dhcp-client-206.233.215.80.hearme.com | likmepoo:
So you're saying your last line is
"This [debate] is a psychological exercise designed to make you more flexible and less naïve."?
Ummm... ok. Read your message out loud and insert the word debate into it. This does NOT fit in to the paragraph at all. Maybe you meant to say "what i'm saying is intended to make you more flexible and less naive."
I would argue with you more but it's just not the effort. i'm not going to believe that when i join a 2 on 2 that backstabbing is something to be expected and you're obviously too busy to go out of our way to impart any more wisdom upon us. (:
Oh well, that's prob for the best since I don't check this site all that often. Only got to this cuz shock posted it on his forum. | | #44 shockwave[66664] | | exchange1.sensable.com | likemepoo:
It *seems* like we agree. This is my original comment:
<I>
You explained why backstabbing might happen and you can't trust everyone unconditionally. I agree, it does happen, nobody contends that. But it is still WRONG. </I>
And this is your response:
<I>
1) "Backstabbing" is like going against your word. Yea it's not ethical, but in SC it's allowed and you enter your games knowing it's a possibility. Not saying it's right or wrong... just that it's allowed and each person has a choice to do so whether we like it or not. Discussion done.
</I>
The original poster, and many of the responses, seem to be arguing that backstabbing is a *justified* thing ethically. My point is that "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial." If you agree with this, then more power to you :-) and we have no contention between us.
I think though everyone would agree with at least the first part (backstabbing is permissible), so it seems like a moot point. I am trying to make a stronger point that people shouldn't do it because it's wrong. You mention multiple times that we're all close minded and we need to lighten up and listen to the other side; but then you argue that backstabbing is permissible and therefore we should just live with it. I don't see how that addresses our concerns nor how your opinion goes by your own advice and tries to be open minded about the nature of our concerns. It's very easy to just assert that the other side is close-minded and needs to be more accepting; unfortunately, both sides can most often say the same thing towards each other.
Backstabbing is wrong and unethical, we both agree. That is the point I am making. Nobody is contending whether the possibility of backstabbing exists or not -- obviously it does since people do it.
| | #45 but[66796] | | 213.131.139.130 | Don't talk to strangers.
Don't believe everything you hear.
Don't hitch-hike.
Never judge a book by its covers.
OK, so what if it's more than 'just a game'. What if it is, in actuality, comparable to every other aspect of life. We live in a world where being weary and sceptical might just save your life when it counts. Wouldn't you rather havce learnt that lesson in an online computer game than in the back of a dark van? | | #46 HardStomper[66809] | | 213.131.139.130 | Shock -- I've never argued that backstabbing is ethically justifiable. For Gods' sake, did you even read the report? It starts with a disclaimer, saying just that...
There are lots of things that are morally and ethically wrong -- and still we all do it. (Yes, my friend, that includes you. I'll get to why in the next paragraph.)
Are you aware of the kind of life you would have to lead to be unreproachabl, morally and ethically? What you would have to eat (strictly vegetarian, and even then only from ecologically approved areas/labour), wear (the better part of the known fashion world are notorious for abusing human and civil rights, not to mention their contribution to cementing gender stereotypes), watch (many television programmes are made while exploiting the rights of both humans and animals -- you're watching them leads to higher ratings, leading to more inflated ad prices, leading to bigger budgets for upcoming seasons of such shows), work with (don't even get me started there!) etc etc ad infinitum.
And before you draw breath for the continuing repetitions of the blatant obvious; no, it is not necessary to have a white soul in order to complain about the darkness of our times. You may well cast the first stone. Chip away at the grain in my eye. But next time, I suggest you settle for standing up and being counted (which is fair enough) and not automatically condemn everyone who engages in conduct you feel violates the moral code by which we all should live.
Noone questions its validity. We shouldn't backstab. In a perfect world, there'd be nothing of the kind (no Starcraft either for that matter; the game thrives on hate and carnage... this entire "moral" discussion actually feels quite absurd when you take that into consideration). There'd also be no smoking, no drinking, no fornicating before wedlock (and I don't think you need me to go into greater detail on how each of those things *DO* affect other people quite badly, and is therefore completely comparabla on this level with backstabbing...) etc etc etc
| | #47 Rumpelstiltskin[66811] | | 213.131.139.130 | Eh... guys? "Moral" and "ethical" are the same thing. Ut's just that one word comes from the Greeks, the other from Latin. Same thing though. Always makes me laugh when people bunch'em together like that. That's all.
/Rump | | #48 shockwave[66825] | | exchange1.sensable.com | Hardstomper --
First of all, just because nobody is perfect, doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to be more perfect and moral. If I see something that I consider wrong, then I will certainly speak up against it. No I don't think I am above anyone else, certainly not on account of my views on backstabbing. We all suck, that's just the meat of it, and if you know me there would surely be many many things you could point out in my life that are lacking.
But don't bring judgment into this. I'm not judging you nor looking down on you for this at all. I'm sure you're a decent person, and I certainly don't feel I have a right to say anything about your overall moral stature in the hierarchy of things based on whether you backstab in Starcraft. I am simply pointing out an ACTION that I strongly disagree with. If you submitted a battle report where you talked about the virtues of disconnecting and using a map hack, then I'll most certainly berate that. Those are what I consider a deplorable action, and I will fiercely defend them as such. I don't think that has anything to do with whether I'm unreproachable or blameless ethically; I think just about *anyone* here has a right to point out that backstabbing, hacking, and disconnecting are wrong.
BTW: You'll find that most of my comments weren't directed to you. See my first comment at #25. The only thing I addressed directly towards you was your notion that 7on1 comp stompers suck and are the lowest form of life. I mean, READ your first couple of paragraphs again in your battle report. How can you accuse of me being self-righteous, wherein the thing that seemingly motivated you in the first place to backstab was that you felt 7on1 comp players are such low forms of life that you feel you need to take the role of a sort of police force to bash them down. And the same person who wrote that battle report then writes this to me wheN I point out that backstabbing is wrong:
<I>But next time, I suggest you settle for standing up and being counted (which is fair enough) and not automatically condemn everyone who engages in conduct you feel violates the moral code by which we all should live. </I>
Again I see NOTHING wrong with pointing out reproachable behavior, and I never implied that you are any less of a person nor that I am any greater for that. You might as well argue that people should remain silent about map hacking using your logic. | | #49 HardStomper[66954] | | 213.131.139.130 | East is east, and west is west; never the twain shall meet.
Of course map hacking is not applicable here. Map hacking is distorting the physical problem we all use. It changes the code (or "law" if you will). Comparing a physical alteration and a moral breach is nonsensical. Using *that* logic, an insult spoken is comparable to a fistfight beating.
| | #50 shockwave[66957] | | exchange1.sensable.com | HardStomper - I'm honestly confused at your last post (#49). I believe that when someone does something considered wrong (whether morally or legally or whatever), it's not reproachable to bring up that you believe that action is wrong. If you posted about map hacking, which I believe to be wrong, then I will point that out. You could make the same objections you did in your previous post -- there are a lot more grevious offenses in the world, this is no basis on which to judge someone -- and I would agree with those. But still, I think it is valid to point out that the action itself is wrong.
I believe backstabbing is wrong. So do you. That's great, unfortunately some others here do not agree, therefore I argue against them. To reiterate, the only direct thing I had to say to you was that I believe it is incorrect to say that comp stompers suck and they need to be "helped", and I think that attitude is exactly the self-righteous one that you accused me so vehemently of in your #46 post. | | #51 clutch^III[66965] | | 128.148.60.239 |
Hate to get dragged into this, but...
First of all, people claim that map hacking is nothing like backstabbing because backstabbing is a moral breach while map hacking is a physical alteration of the game (#49). I think you shouldn't be so quick to differentiate. In any given starcraft game, one huge part of the physical gameplay is the alliance situation. In other words, who, what, and where your friends and enemies are is a key physical part of the game. Map hacking gives one person an unfair advantage in terms of recon: you see everything your enemies are doing. Backstabbing is worse, because assuming you allied vision, you know all of your enemies moves, and in addition, he doesn't expect the attack. So if I'm backstabbing in a game I have ALL the advantages of a hacker plus the element of surprise. You might even say it's like a worse cheat than hacking. Of course, I have much more problem with hacking than backstabbing, but I hope you see the point. The fact that you shouldn't be able to win 1v7 or whatever doesn't change the argument, unless you're really just concerned about numbers in the win and loss column. And while some 7v1 stompers may fall into that category, I'd hope most of you don't.
Secondly, do the people who are so quick to defend the backstabbers believe it's cool to backstab your teammate in a 2v2, say in NoHunters? Your answer should be the same in either game. If you are basing what is essentially a moral argument on the fact that some people have more or less skill in starcraft, I think you run into big logical problems. Blizzard doesn't prohibit backstabbing, that is true. However it also doesn't prohibit 7v1 comp stomps or any other kind of starcraft scenario for that matter. Who is to say any kind of starcraft game is superior to another? For that matter, why should Blizzard be the ultimate authority here?
| | #52 weilin[66973] | | spider-wg033.proxy.aol.com | y did the chicken cross the road?
to get to the other side
LOL
LOL
LOL
how funny | | #53 HardStomper[67102] | | 213.131.139.130 | Shock et. al. -- If you wanna be some kind of Mister Make-nice, what are you doing playing a game like Starcraft in the first place? Shouldn't you be out there with picket signs advocating picking flowers? THis about "ooooh, it's soooo bad to back-stab in Starcraft" is like those laughable real-life war-time "rules"... The U.N. sitting there saying "OK, suppose you*do* have to shoot each other to bits using machine guns... that's no reason not to behave!"
Puh-lease...
| | #54 shockwave[67138] | | 24.147.232.78 | HardStomper: This is so hypocritical. You go backstab people because you somehow feel they are the lowest form of life; then when I *merely* point out that I believe backstabbing is wrong, I get this self-righteous flaming back in my face like you feel I'm "casting the first stone" or putting myself above everyone merely because I recognize that backstabbing is wrong. It's ironic that a lot of the phrasing you use sounds like Christian lingo.
Please answer my comments directly. You seem to avoid them and instead repeatedly take cheap shots at my character and personality. And this is the same person who implies that I'm self-righteous for bringing up that backstabbing is wrong.
Please, already, your posts reek of hypocrisy and it makes me sad to read them. No, I don't think you're any less of a person for backstabbing, nor even for the way that you've attacked my character. I merely believe that backstabbing is wrong, therefore I point it out and discuss it just like I would any other contentious moral/legal/ethical issue. After all, I'm *sure* you knew that when you posted your message, you'd prompt some discussion about backstabbing.
Finally, I assure you that I do my part to try to help improve the real world around me in whatever capacity I have. Just about anyone recognized on this forum can attest to that, even those who don't know me at all in real life. So you can make all the slanderous accusations you want; I believe my actions are justified and there is nothing wrong with enjoying a game of Starcraft once in a while nor does that detract from any other aspects of my commitments to improve humanity.
And what is your contribution to humanity? Apparently, it includes going into a friendly game with six strangers and totally ruining their fun, patronizing them... and when you *KNOW* it's wrong, that makes the action even more deplorable.
| | #55 weilin[67229] | | spider-th084.proxy.aol.com | y did the chicken cross the road?
to gte to the other side
LOL
LOL
LOl
its so funny!!! | | #56 HardStomper[67460] | | cvx-got-1-232.ppp.netlink.se | | Shock -- I am sorry it makes you sad to read my comments. May I suggest, then, that you refrain from doing so? That way, we'll both feel a whole lot better. Ignorance sometimes *is* bliss. | | #57 Hostile~SCV[67538] | | spider-tl072.proxy.aol.com | Shock, it's a G-A-M-E. Simmer down. If you become president, go ahead and make a Constitutional Amendment that prohibits backstabbing in GAMES.
Otherwise, shut the hell up. | | #58 [67598] | | 213.131.139.130 | Wow, Shock, hangon. Your first post (#25) begins:
"I think back stabbers are the lowest form of life. "
and then (#54) you say that the reason you ventured into this discussion, is because you disapprove of the author backstabbing
"because you somehow feel they are the lowest form of life"
It seems you're about as much of a hypocrite as anyone else around here. Personally, I guess I've been lucky. I comp-stomped 10 times (to get to Ladder Status) but never got bs'ed, so I can't really say what it's like. But I *did* suspect being about to be bs'ed a couple of those times, and I actually thought it would have been fair enough. Comp-stomping - to me, at any rate - isn't what this game is about. If you're gonna do that, I think you should keep it off battle.net and Kali altogether. Maybe have a separate channel/clan/service for it. That's probably never gonna happen, but hey - I'm just thinking out loud here.
Hmm. Like anyone still reads this, what, is this comment 58 already? Sheesh. How come *my* reports never got that many comments? And I even got a higher ranking than this guy :)
/Rump | | #59 shockwave[67608] | | exchange1.sensable.com | <B>Rump:</B>
The comments about backstabbers being the lowest form of life is a play on words of HS's own disclaimer when he said the same, and were primarily directed towards the people above me in that post. If you read my post again, you'll notice that the only thing I addressed HardStomper directly about was his comment the comp stompers are the lowest form of life. HS and I both agree that backstabbing is wrong, he mentioned that in his report and reiterated that; so there is no contention about that point. If you follow the subsequent discussion, you'll see that I was primarily writing to likemepoo during those series of posts.
Here is my beef with HardStomper -- the guy accuses me of being self righteous and "casting the first stone" and that if I'm going to get so heated up about backstabbers, I should be planting flowers instead. He attacks my character because I think backstabbing is wrong. Yet this is the same guy sho writes that comp stompers suck so bad that he has to sorta act like a moral police and bash them down. Do you see the irony in here? You could almost see someone writing *his exact comments* to him after reading his battle report. The same person who implies that I'm so judgmental is also the one who is bashing comp stompers in the first place because he thinks they suck so bad.
<b>Hostile~SCV:</b>
Yes, it is just a game. But I think if you read through the comments, it's reasonable to understand why we're flaming back and forth about this. If you didn't, then you really have no right to flame me. I'm pointing out that I think backstabbing is wrong. Hostile, if you got map hacked, I'm sure you might also point out that map hacking is wrong. There is nothing wrong with pointing out objectionable behavior, surely you would agree with this? The problem is that I then get worthless argument and slandering back at me. Of course I'm going to keep trying to get my point across. Wouldn't you? What if you got hacked and filed a BR about this, and everyone answered, "You're such a wuss, stomach it like a real man, it's just a game and there's nothing wrong with hacking." You'd probably try a bit harder to get your point across too.
I find stuff like backstabbing and map hacking to really ruin the game of Starcraft, so I'm going to try to discourage that in the game. That's all. But can call me too serious, but I love this game and the reason I did things like start the forum and help create the nohunters channel was to try to help people enjoy the game better.
| | #60 Jake[67653] | | 213.131.139.130 | I cannot believe you people are objecting to shock's posts. Anyone with half a mind knows that it is everybody's moral obligation to speak up when confronted with something wrong, regardless of how popular or socialle acceptable it might be. It's about free speech. It's about the right to think for oneself, not just follow the herd. I'll leave you with two quotes to bear in mind:
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals." -- Men In Black
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." -- Greenpeace. | | #61 C|oud[68428] | | ham-on57-067.netcom.ca | | i have a few things to say about you: like most of the people in nohunters, i started out as a compstomper. i have nto done it in years, but there were times that i used it to get better. for you to interupt the learning of some newbie, it is not a nice thing to do. they have a right to play and not be killed by a jackass backstabber. on the other hand, this is a VERY funny report. =] | | #62 TheSparky[69471] | | pool-63.52.229.46.ipls.grid.net | | Heh, I didn't think I would ever see a report about a backstab anywhere but icantlose:P Nice report, but you should take screen shots. |
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