| #1 Johnny_Vegas (staff-8.ahnet.net)[7644] |
|
Nice report. This is also my favorite build order on land vs protoss. I did it last night on Rivalry, but I had to work for the win, as I went for map control and starvation tactics as opposed to your quick kill. However the guy I played made zealots and goons before getting dtemps. In the end though 3/3 factory units won the day.
God damn spider mines rule, and I love seeing them used. That screenshot with the mine blowing up the probes is one of the best ever.
Only problem with this strat is if the protoss hits you with zealots and goons when you have that measly one bunker with 4 marines in it. But if you survive past that stage, your in business. |
| #2 <font color="#FF0000">Twip</font><font color="#333333"> (port-4-10-56k.gallipoli[7645] |
|
| </font><font color="#FF0000" size="2">Aww Heartcutter, when I posted about a Vulture build you told me that it never worked for you so I discarded it shortly after. :o( Oh well, I never did refine it though. However, I always thought that if your ground can't finish it for one reason or another, some Wraiths will cynch it. That's just me...I hardly ever play ladder anyway. :o\ Meow.</font> |
| #3 Gayprotoss (198.182.163.113)[7646] |
|
I've tried that buildorder, and unfortunately, it only works against dt-rushers. Any other tactic will mean a lot of dead vultures. One-two cannons in the base and they're out.
Reaver dropping at that early 'vulnerable' stage will make it painful as well.
On lost temple in particular, he can expand on islands even if you have land superiority.
Many protoss don't realize this but hallucination works on mines better than observers - you don't need to tech to another tree if you've already got the archives.
Also, goons in numbers of six or higher can kill mines as they pop, attack moving - unless there's a high concentration of those in one place. In which case, psistorm will do it.
If the opponent you had were smart, he'd put a cannon or two on his choke, just like you and your bunker.
Yes you would have containment on him - until the drop.
Anyway, not to shoot you down or anything, it's a decent strategy but Protoss are still gay and that's my lil opinion there.
Oh, worse yet... say you send that vulture out and he finds that the guy went forge first and now has 3 cannons at his natural with two bases already, and maynarded his way into resource advantage, early carriers OR goons with d-web support. Late scouting may be a big deal here. |
| #4 Ash (209.110.158.1)[7647] |
|
| Allright!! I get the first comment on a report by Commander Heartcutter. A report I specifically requested too!! (see Dev's comment line in a below game) And joy of joys, an honest-to-god toss counter for Terrans. The report itself is nothing groundbreaking (CB and YRM are really taking a toll on my ratings), but it definietly had its moments. "We're Terran. We're rednecks, we're inbred, and we're proud of it!" Damn straight! The new build will undoubtably make life miserable for many protoss in the near future. Mwahaha! Heartcutter, I salute you. |
| #5 Ash (209.110.158.1)[7648] |
|
| Doh!! I HAD the first comment, but I took too much time typing. Next time I'll just type 'gg' and leave it at that. |
| #6 Mark4 (strangers.bragg.army.mil)[7649] |
|
| So far I'm 2-2 vrs this build. I did not use dtemps extensively any of those games, instead opting for mostly straight power games with observers. And one of the wins was from a cheesy proximal build zealot rush. Mass tank pushes with mines own protoss ground. You simply do not have a chance. I outpowered heart for the start of two of the games and went 1-1. The third one I tried a reaver drop. He had a tank without seige, but I dropped too close and lost the reaver. Of course, farther away he had a minefield. That initial tech investment left me without hope of winning. And yes, I was trying close to my best vrs heart trying out a new strat. Macro just wasn't enough. |
| #7 sho_kosugi (alpxy2.att.com)[7651] |
|
| reminds me of my game =) Good report. |
| #8 Heartcutter (office-199.x.beyond.com)[7652] |
|
A couple of things:
This is a battle tested strat now. I've played roughly 10 1200+ prot players. I've used it on temple and on Ashrigo, and I'm very happy with it.
The second thing is the derivatives off of this strat, and some issues you will encounter:
1: Zealot rush. If your bunker gets bumrushed by loads of zealots early, immediately build a new bunker near your factories. You can pull SCVs off to repair it. Mark4 tested this against me on one of the games we played. He went proximal gateway, and had a load of zels on me really fast. I survived (I didn't win, due to bad decisions because I didn't know the map). The bunker racked up the kills and I was able to start fighting back.
2: Heavy goon action.
Tanks. You're in good shape. You've got 2 factories with shops on them. Just do that holding action until they come online. Then spank 'em.
3: Cannon in the natural.
This can be messed with by a turbo newbie, tank push (recommended), or a vulture end-run (Approx 5-8 vultures with the move command). I prefer the end-run, because I leave mines all over his base, and mess with his peons.
The one thing to remember is that you will shift gears from vultures to tanks. You're gonna have to develop sensitivity as to when. |
| #9 Heartcutter (office-199.x.beyond.com)[7653] |
|
| Twip. Hey. You're still the man. You had the idea first, and I respect that. |
| #10 [IceBerG] (ip-205-40.phx.fr.dancris.com)[7655] |
|
Fun build... In response to Gay, it can be easily countered, but it leads it way to fast tanks. If he went forge first and secured his expansion with cannons, you would switch to tanks and rines. Spending 400 for a nexus and 300 fo 2 cannons plus any extra probes, he is set back momentarily. As long as terran doesn't take too long with the tank push, terran is fine. GP is definitly right about the cannons, they are important. The thing here is that you get the vultures there before the cannon placement. Most builds go, 1)rush, 2)set up d if that doesn't work, 3)tech. This terran build would be a good counter to that. Even if he comes with zeals, you should be okay using some micro, and perfectly fine once you have a couple vultures out.
Anyway, I like it and it is fun to pull of, just more risky. One more note, seige tanks and gols work well on Temple islands. ;-)
Chow~! |
| #11 <font color="#FF0000">Twip</font><font color="#333333"> (port-4-10-56k.gallipoli[7656] |
|
| </font><font color="#FF0000" size="2">LOL Cutter, nah..I got the idea from Vegas to start with. I just thought that was sorta ironic. :o\</font> |
| #12 Gayprotoss (aug4-s60-122.powerlink.net)[7658] |
|
| Woa wait a sec... I had the idea since before vultures got their big breaks in 1.05, in my BadGuy(tm) days ... I'm just not a great player with too little time to practice what I preach. :) |
| #13 OrcManiac (ppp076.131.mmtl.videotron.net)[7659] |
|
Ok nice guys but this build is far from new duh. I use this build since normal starcraft and trust me it was much more sucessfull back there. WHy? ppl were onl using zealot and reaver drop so vulture and tank was the perfect answer but now with mass goons its alot harder to pull it off. It can still work but watch out for the 3 zeals then ranged goons rush then dt if they see u dont have detection. THis give toss lik 5-6 goons in ur base when u got like 1 tank so watch out. Just my tough.
PS: i dont know if u know )3east but he is a mad fact rusher
Orc |
| #14 Gayprotoss (aug4-s60-122.powerlink.net)[7661] |
|
Typical forge first order: 4 cannnons at main, pylon, 3 cannons natural, second nexus, then gateway, 2 assimilators and tech to whatever OR goon power.
Variations: two cannons and forge at choke, then 4 at expansion before nexus. One cannon at main then natural 4 cannons (when feeling lucky).
Just a thought: early web + goons against this?
Protoss turtle recipe: first cannons, second templar + goons, third corsairs + arbiters.
Ok now I've done it.
(takes the foot out and shuts up) |
| #15 CKCT (itchy7-7-61.ionsys.com)[7663] |
|
..vultures work good against toss...but if he goes heavy on zealots rush early on, then you may have a prob..**BUT most toss will go tech up for DTs...**
what i like to do is reseach on land mines, rush 4 vutlures into his peon line, drop some mines and start hitting taht peon line *2 hit = 1 dead probE*.. if he try to attack my vultures, i retreat, those mines pop up....booom..kill his units and his probes..
|
| #16 2Inadequate (176.chicago-11-12rs.il.dial-access.att.net)[7677] |
|
Way to stop this build on realm...
If you get off cannoned at your choke, this build really hurts. I lost to YRM using a similar build.
|
| #17 YourRoleModel (97.np8.np.dialup.nauticom.net)[7678] |
|
2inadequate tried this build order on me on the FadingRealms today. Unfortunately for him, he couldn't stuff his choke early enough and I saw what he was doing. Quickly, I used 3 zealots a goon a shield battery and 2 cannons spread out above his choke. The rest of my cash was spent at home building up defenses for a drop, expanding and teching for templars and dark templars. This left 2 with a semi weak, but growing (extra gate there) containment at his choke and me with a defense enough for wraiths or 1-2 dropships easy. No vultures were going to get by his own choke, so he wasted them and had to tech to tanks. By the time Terran broke containment, I had 3 sources of income and had stopped several attacks and expansions. This also happened in a game with Holy...
Basically, what I am pointing out is not that this build doesn't work, but if it does, you need to control your choke and access to the rest of the map. Lost Temple is great for this, but if you play on Realm, get to your highground early and control it. This tidbit from a lesser player's perspective and how you can screw it up if you ain't Heartcutter. |
| #18 Johnny_Vegas (fink.ahnet.net)[7680] |
|
| Yeah its not perfect, but its a good strat. It's weak early game and powerful as heck mid-game. |
| #19 patheto (zam22753.zam.kfa-juelich.de)[7682] |
|
For somebody else's opinion and experience on this, go to starcraft.org, terran advanced tactics.
Personally, I love laying my mines in dense batches of three, practically on top of each other. One of 'em is going to get through even against goons. Trust me on that. |
| #20 Johnny_Vegas (fink.ahnet.net)[7684] |
|
| Yeah, That's how I lay em too patheto. Like all strats, this has its weaknesses. But if it works then the terran is in the driver's seat. |
| #21 Johnny_Vegas (fink.ahnet.net)[7685] |
|
| Yeah, That's how I lay em too patheto. Like all strats, this has its weaknesses. But if it works then the terran is in the driver's seat. |
| #22 <font color="#FF0000">Twip</font><font color="#333333"> (port-4-10-56k.gallipoli[7686] |
|
| </font><font color="#FF0000" size="2">I got my red font-paster to work!! :D Meow! |
| #23 Blank (167.hartford-06-07rs.ct.dial-access.att.net)[7690] |
|
Just to add my two cents to the dual-factory rush:
Like most strats, it works on some maps, and dies horribly on others. Some strats just don't work well on some maps. I've seen alot of Terran players playing around with the dual-factory rush, but I'm still a bit skeptical about it. The dual-factory rush is only something experts should try, intermediates like me would have way to hard a time trying to pull this off=) In fact, I tried doing a dual fac rush to Fizban on Rivalry and got my ass handed to me=)
but what do I know, my Terran game sucks
Blank |
| #24 Pickle (user-2ivea78.dialup.mindspring.com)[7695] |
|
Probes don't trigger mines, do they? I know the splash can kill'em, but I thought the mine itself won't attack a probe. Anyone able to clear this up for me?
Thanks,
Pickle
|
| #25 MikeyMonty (spider-wm074.proxy.aol.com)[7696] |
|
| I was wondering the same thing. I dont't think any peons trigger mines; at least scvs don't. Do the other enemy units bait the mines into the probes? |
| #26 Savage']['eaCup (proxy2-external.elcjn1.sdca.home.com)[7697] |
|
| yeah peons don't trigger mines but cutter put them there so when the protoss guys come to defend they get blown up and so do his probes. =D |
| #27 -=Elminster=- (lennon.vianet.net.au)[7700] |
|
| I dunno but i rarely lost to fact rush, instead most of my loss come from mass infantry+ tank (lots of tanks and drops too not only infantry) like last night 8(. Vulture didnt really bother me coz i usually go goons first and park themm in front of his base so vulture cant contain u and naturally i go for robo anyway to reaver drop+ obs (useful coz then u know when terran unsiege and when to attack). This buy u enough time to expand etc coz u have to wait till siege and by the time u can get out i already have an expo going and at least 4 gate enough to halt the tankpush while upgrading like mad and expanding again, rite orc ? 8)However it all depends on early scouting war really, if i saw infantry then i use dt containment instead that works much better, its real hard to stop that first infantry+tank push first on if u do goon+robo opening unless u also use reaver 8( Anyway ignore this comment coz im suck 8( |
| #28 OrcManiac (ppp122.100.mmtl.videotron.net)[7703] |
|
Yeah if u think ur good with ran go try it vs elm u will see if it really work(it will not :( ). Im like 2-435332 terran vs toss vs elm but ironicaly both win was with fact rush :() go figure :/ mabe i also got with with infantry im not sure. Anyway a protoss that know what he is doing will almost kill a terran anyday :(
...to win u goota use tricks(turbo newbie,etc or somethng really crazy wraith rush maybe lol)
Orc |
| #29 Freedom-or-Fire (spider-tk081.proxy.aol.com)[7704] |
|
| I always though i lost with terran because i used vultures. |
| #30 Slicer (ip167.portland11.or.pub-ip.psi.net)[7706] |
|
| Wraith rushing actually worked... back in 1.03. |
| #31 2Inadequate (184.chicago-03-04rs.il.dial-access.att.net)[7718] |
|
| Wraith rush for terran is still effective, just block off your choke and tech. If the person's scouting wasn't adequate enough, it can catch him quite off guard, especially now that no 1 wraith rushes nemore on land. |
| #32 DrNick_ (okcnasf-40.ionet.net)[7719] |
|
| Its nice to have strats that make the toss build a certain order to counter what the terran begins, rather than the other way around; mine pushes do a very good job of forcing that :D |
| #33 vulture (fe2.southeast.rr.com)[7771] |
|
2 factory with a lot of vultures first is a specific build order that should only work against dts rushers. this build is basically not a "heal all" for terran/toss.
I will not believe that terran/toss is balanced until there are at least 27% terran in the top 1000 ladder.
heartcutter makes no mention of even scouting the protoss player to make sure that he was indeed going dts which is a ***REAL BAD IDEA**** as the toss has many options (dts rushing is the favorite one used by 1100-1275 players).
heartcutter was *very lucky* the toss player did not reaver rush, go straight to ranged goons or just 2 gate early o cannon....however the protoss player may have been a below avg player using a build he got off of a website that was "guaranteed" to work. |
| #34 Heartcutter (office-249.x.beyond.com)[7792] |
|
Vulture, thanks for your vote of confidence. Thank goodness for me my opponent wasn't ranked 1100-1275. He was a lowly 1320. His DT build was FAST.
As for this strat, I have lost games with it. It's not perfect (yet!) and takes a whole lot of micro. I have been using it for about a week now, and my win/loss is roughly 7-3 against 1250+ ranked opponents.
Some other key observations regarding this strat:
1: Turret coverage of your base is key. Build the 3 turrets it takes to protect it.
2: Play the expansion denial game with the vultures once he clogs up his choke. Don't just throw them away.
3: Keep building tanks whenever you have the excess minerals. Your vultures are just a lead-in.
Good luck.
|
| #35 Gruntwrapper (CITRIX3.CUYAHOGA.LIB.OH.US)[7821] |
|
About the Cannons at the choke:
I noticed the vultures themselves deal a nice
amount of damage to cannons. A starter fleet of
5 vultures can take a couple out pretty quick.
You will win the resource war at least.
An intersting way to deny expansions is also to
spider mine them all. You can't place structures
over them, so he'll either have to build futher
away from the resources, or wait around for a
detect invis unit to come over to clear it out.
Either way, he's set back from expanding. |
| #36 Omnipresent (catvnet-116-194.catvnet.com)[7825] |
|
I have to agree with heart in that this idea isn't perfect. Desperate for a way to deal with psi storm, I've also been trying out factory rushes with mixed success and defeat. My biggest surprise, however, was that it was actually working vs zerg opponents. Even so, I want and need to try to work out inherent weaknesses in the build, but with school coming up I'm not sure I'll have much time ;-<. Either way, terran heavy metal, or, as I like to refer to it, "make your opponent laugh his ass off by using vultures" ;), worked a lot better than I thought and all the toss I played went with reavers and goons and not temps, so it may have potential after all. And, like heart told me in a game, it isn't so much for the vults as it is for the tanks.
My 2 cents it is. (gotta have some ending) |
| #37 Johnny_Vegas (fink.ahnet.net)[7826] |
|
Don't forget goliaths people, make all 3 factory units. All you have to do is make the CORRECT number of each to match up against the enemy.
See air? More goliaths
See zealots? More vultures
See any land unit? More tanks
Just modify the ratio like a baking recipe. |
| #38 Mark4 (1Cust88.tnt1.rdu1.da.uu.net)[7832] |
|
| Did that screenshot arouse anyone else? |
| #39 SnowSquall (calamari.frognet.net)[7833] |
|
Seek professional help, Mark4. Right NOW! It's not too late!
"Friends dont let friends get aroused by nukes" |
| #40 Seriph (pool0542.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)[7838] |
|
Hmm, note-to-self, writing a BR for a new strat works better then 10+ posts on b.net strats.
Cool, I've been using this strat for a few months now (knew it before reading this) and I'm glad to see someone good verify it for me. It's always worked well for me but i didn't know if I was just playing newbies. Oh, and if you're on showdown or sometimes fading realm, protoss have NO chance. Even if they have the choke cannoned in, you still have mine containment and quick access to tanks. Here's my build, post-reply if you have any comments
9 rax
10 depot
one marine scout, a bunker if there's an early threat.
factory asap
two vultures then machine shop
enginnering bay and weapons upgrade if you have the money
harrassment with vultures in probe mine (tricky part)
second barracks, mines, and a few more vultures with all that money you saved.
An early zealot rush can be held with a few marines, a bunker, and a vulture if you can dance. If you have mines, lay them before entering the base. A second barracks would help. A minefield in the correct shape can kill many dragoons because they have moving projectiles (not like a marine's or a hydralisk's) and large size. The correct shape is a crecent facing the dragoons. Always have a few vultures and a decent minefield in front of both your and his bases. Tell me if there are any flaws, I would love to debate over it.
|
| #41 Seriph (pool0542.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)[7839] |
|
| heh, if we're all gonna claim who did it first, might as well say it was me :) |
| #42 Seriph (pool0542.cvx10-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)[7841] |
|
| It would seem that I have found a way to build a factory WITHOUT a refinery :). You can build it when your first rax is building, sorry about that. |
| #43 -=Elminster=- (lennon.vianet.net.au)[7852] |
|
| I usually prefer to build acadmy first instead of ebay which come very later on, Using this build I would either mine contain him, or if he go goons first Ill just mine my choke. Either way I'll expand while upgrading and going to 3rd factory and starports. Using the academy u can determine what he;s going for and at least works much better for me than turrets. Just dont forget to mine ur base real hard. Its much more cost efficient that bunker+turret defense early on 8) |
| #44 -=Elminster=- (lennon.vianet.net.au)[7853] |
|
| Oh 1 more thing i usuall forego the bunker and just keep 1 scv outside of his base and when i see him moving out with like 3 zeals i usuall just put 2 scvs blocking the ramp with all my marines (usually 4 by then by constant 1 rax) behind them and usually by the time they arrive Ill have my first vulture ready too. BUt then again im not a spectacular terran player do dont trust me too much 8( |
| #45 Heartcutter (209.185.98.79)[7864] |
|
Gruntwrapper: You hit the nail on the head. I've been using what you described. 'Poisioning' the expansion spots with a well-placed mine. I do this everywhere now (except my own natural expansion). It really screws with the Prot player. And, when the mine gets blown up, I send in the vulture packs to see what's wrong.
Once you force your opponent's hand with this strat, you really have to watch out for 'Carrier Whoring'. I fought a really good prot player last night who had 1 scout and 4 carriers (I kept him down to just having his main, and an island). He was able to wreck 4 of my CCs and withdraw before my goliaths could chase him away. I had to tech up to lockdown in order to deal with this threat.
So what I'm saying is that you still will need ghosts and lockdown, and the sooner you get there and charge up your ghosts, usually the better.
Oh, and missile turrets suck vs. carriers. They really, really suck.
If someone can also test this question, I'd be grateful: Say my goliaths open fire on an interceptor, and the interceptor goes back into the carrier. Does the missile that the goliath fired impact on the carrier?
|
| #46 Johnny_Vegas (fink.ahnet.net)[7865] |
|
| Yeah, carriers are the direct counter to this strat I think. Goliaths really don't do it, so once you see carriers coming in to play you have to get some ghosts. The good news is, goliaths and ghosts compliment each other well. Ghosts and wraiths do too, BUT corsairs shred your wraiths anyway. Corsairs can't touch your goliaths. Using this strat you will probably have 2/2 goliaths vs his 0/0 or 1/1 carriers. And you will probably have 5+ factories able to go hardcore goliaths once you see he's going carriers via comsat. |
| #47 Gayprotoss (198.182.163.113)[7875] |
|
Vultures + Mines ->
1) Protoss goes for observers
1a) + mass dragoons (woohoo!)
1b) + a reaver drop (uh oh...)
2) Protoss goes air
3) Protoss gets hallucination
Note: hah. Never happens.
Important note: the smart thing for a Protoss player to do is send one probe out to expand in the most unlikely, and out of the way place. Probes hover, they don't set off mines (neither do archons, btw), so it can slip through the minefield after the first wave of vultures is killed. Yes you're "denying" expansions but if the map is big enough, you won't cover them all. The stupidest thing is to have a tank push into his main which is stalled into late game while he owns the rest of the map and outexpands you 4 to 1 while you think he's almost dead.
Rollover and die syndrome: it happened to me once... you know, when the carriers come out unexpected and level a few supply depots in an expansion... so while they're out there killing stuff, I am sending all my SCVs to make more supply depots because I'm in negative supply and can't build any counters. This can tie up your hands into an utter defeat. So, I guess the good idea is to not put any supply depots on lightly defended expansions. Using one-two for a wall in is ok, but having 5-6 with nothing to protect them against the elements is asking for it. |
| #48 Ash (209.110.158.1)[7878] |
|
| Mark4, any terran player worth his salt gets turned on at the sight of such a beautiful nuke, and those who say they don't are lying. Of course, you're a toss player, and those are your buildings getting nuked, so you must be a pervert. ;-) I belive the technical term is "sado-machoist." There are two courses of action for you: you can either seek professional help like SnowSquall suggested, or you can give in to your innermost desires and start playing terran. Try it...you'll like it. |
| #49 Mark4 (strangers.bragg.army.mil)[7885] |
|
| My terran isn't that bad... |
| #50 .Praetor (port-sac38.cwo.com)[7887] |
|
| Hearcutter, once the golaiths have fired at the interceptor, it will hit the interceptor, even if it goes back into the carrier. Looks just like it hits the carrier, though, doesn't it? |
| #51 Slicer (ip89.portland11.or.pub-ip.psi.net)[7902] |
|
| Does the Carrier repair its Inters? |
| #52 Ash (209.110.158.1)[7907] |
|
| Yes. And all shields are recharged. |
| #53 MikeyMonty (spider-wk052.proxy.aol.com)[8025] |
|
| Interceptor shields are recharged, but I believe any hp damage they sustain is permanent. I saw it in a FAQ on a strat guide by a guy named Kal-grim the other day. |
| #54 Mark4 (strangers.bragg.army.mil)[8104] |
|
| Hey heart, notice how every terran out there is using your strat now? You must be their god... |
| #55 Persian-POW (proxy2-external.rdc1.az.home.com)[8152] |
|
| Heartcutter is the terran messiah |
| #56 Tagusian[24654] |
| sac-ca41-116.ix.netcom.com |
| amen |
| #57 TheCabbit[24777] |
| bgm-57-110.stny.rr.com |
Hail heartcutter !!!!
But I do keep getting my ass kicked by goons/carriers/dweb etc. I cant seem to get an attack force cuz they constantly ram dragoons up my piehole with dweb. Siege. Unsiege. Move. Siege. Done it, killed off his attacks with relatively low losses. I attack. I get my ass handed to me with another huge batch of Goons. I Scan around and find expands. I put together another force and try to take them out. Goons again. Eventually, I find myself fighting defensively with problems expanding beyond my natural when Carriers come over my Horizon. OMG --; |
| #58 GeNoCiDe[DK][46542] |
| ip50.chicago25.il.pub-ip.psi.net |
| Heartcutter which do you prefer M&M or metal? |
| #59 FLeeM[86367] |
| bess-proxy.bciu.k12.pa.us |
| kekeke omg i wanna play bw again :P everyone add me to AIM.. JinX2185 I think im gonna start to play bw...again..watch out.. muahahahha lol :o |
| #60 bleh...[94788] |
| HubW-mcr-24-24-115-109.midsouth.rr.com |
omg this is hilarious reading this now that a good terran dominates a good toss. People actually commented about how dual factories is only a strat for experts against dt rushers..lol
Hopefully Blizz will downgrade terran in 1.09 because heavy metal is TOO powerful =[ |
| #61 CyMaN[125906] |
| pD9E0A39F.dip.t-dialin.net |
| nah |
Home
Forum
Starcraft Tournaments
